Hello Hans,
I'm glad to read that at least the saa7146 driver won't be removed
completely.
On 31/01/23 09:45, Hans Verkuil wrote:
Hi Stefan,
On 30/01/2023 23:19, Stefan Herdler wrote:
Hello everyone.
This mail is a little bit long, I'm sorry for that.
But I have to describe the TV-situation in Germany roughly. Without that
knowledge it is definitely not understandable why this DVB-S cards are
still very useful here.
Reader familiar with this crazy situation may proceed to the driver
section below.
I'm primary a user of this cards but have profound knowledge about the
Hardware. I used to repair the cards for me and other users back then.
I own Fullfeatured and Budget-cards and use them daily in my VDR-System.
In Germany many channels are free-to-air in the DVB-S version only. I
would like to use these cards for a few more years until DVB-S is
deactivated or the HD-Versions of the channels become free-to-air.
I'm not willing to pay 75 Euro a year for TV-commercials in HD and I'm
not the only one with this opinion.
14 million of the 17 million satelite-tv-households in Germany watch
this channels in SD-quality only (~82%)![1]
In addition uses the encrypting-system a proprietary CAM extension which
makes it impossible to watch this channels on a HTPC legally.
This situation won't change until 2025 (by a kind of law!). What then
happens is currently completely uncertain.
The driver topic however is new to me, the cards where always working
out of the box. I noticed the upcoming removal right before my first mail.
Honestly I was a little shocked that the driver may be removed from Kernel.
Don't worry, the saa7146 driver won't be removed. I admit that that was
my initial plan, but you are not the only one who contacted me to let me
know that the DVB functionality is still in use. I had not expected that
for such old hardware, but it is clear that this driver can't be removed.
The card may be old and not produced any more, but they are not rare and
easily obtainable second hand. There are always multiple offers for
reasonable prices on the common platforms.
And the cards are running flawless on current mainboards with PCIe-PCI
Bridge.
There must be a lot of SAA7146 based cards been sold in Europe. Many
brands sold them, mostly rebranded Technotrend cards.
Even Hauppauge, the most important brand, sold the TT-Budged as "Nova"
and the Fullfeatured as "Nexus" for years. Their own Connexant based
designs came pretty late, short before the PCIe-cards.
I carefully estimate, at least 50% of all PCI-DVB-cards sold in Europe
where SAA7146 based.
There must be still a number of users out there.
The relevance of SAA7146 for PCI-DVB-cards is almost like the Bttv-Chips
for analog TV a few years before. At least in Europe.
And the bttv driver not deprecated despite older and using videobuf1 API!
The underlying reason for deprecating this driver in the first place was
the use of the old videobuf framework for analog TV in this driver: we
want to get rid of that, either by removing such drivers, or converting
it to vb2 (we plan to do that for bttv and cx18). For the saa7146 there
is another option: dropping the analog TV support only.
SAA7146 driver
==============
I've read a lot in the last days and the main issue with the SAA7146
driver seems to be the missing maintainer.
All other issues seem to be a result of that.
Right?
Right. I'm on record as the maintainer, but I really don't have the time
to do a substantial job like the vb2 conversion.
And the driver desperately needs someone with expertise about the cards
and the driver.
I've spotted a big chunk of unused code just by knowing which cards have
been build and which not.
Sören Moch offered to maintain the complete SAA7146 driver in the
VDRportal and in this list too. This offer includes the videobuf2
conversion too.
On condition that the support of the fullfeatured cards stays in the
kernel.
I understand that. He only owns fullfeatured cards.
And I am interested in keeping my fullfeatured cards operational too.
I'm convinced Sören could handle the driver well and he is the only one
I know who probably could do that. And he is actively offering to do the
job.
Honestly, that would be great. We really need to get rid of the old videobuf
framework, it is awful. I found someone to do the bttv conversion, and I plan
to do the cx18 conversion. So that leaves the saa7146: it's either converted
to vb2, or analog video support (that's the part that uses videobuf) has to
be removed.
Obviously, if someone wants to do the vb2 conversion, then that would be
perfect. I was looking at removing analog video support, and that doesn't
look as easy as I thought it would be.
The SAA7146 driver suite is a kind of beast ;-).
I guess it is mainly caused by the DVB-C Budget-Cards.
There are some having analog support too.
I can certainly advice how to go about converting to vb2 as I've done it a
few times in the past. It's rather painful, mostly because it is a 'big bang'
change: it ends up as a single large and mostly unreviewable patch.
Indeed, I've searched for some patches and all are huge.
I have some basic C knowledge, but no experience with kerneldrivers nor
vb1 nor vb2. Unfortunately such a conversion would be out of scope for
me. At least if it should be done in a reasonable time frame.
Sören wrote the conversion would't be a big deal for him and it would be
done within a few weeks.
That leads to the DVB-API part for the AV7110 which should be removed.
An API conversion for the AV7110 does not make sense any more. 10 years
ago maybe, but not now.
Working software would be broken and there will be no benefit for the
user at all.
Converting is however not easy and a driver specific UAPI would be
necessary in any case.
The ioctl "VIDEO_SELECT_SOURCE" needed and definitely missing in the
V4l2-API (see ivtv driver).
The OSD of the FF-Cards is more canvas like, not a framebuffer. The OSD
ioctl are also needed and I haven't found anything in V4l2-API to
replace them.
What about putting the 3 API-files into one driver specific UAPI file?
The deprecated DVB-API part could be officially removed and the
maintainer of the av7110 driver would become responsible for the API.
Could that be an acceptable solution for everybody?
Or do the ~10Kb of possible redundancy in the header hurt so much?
I think this can be something that can be discussed later. It's not my
main concern and not the reason why I originally planned to remove the
driver. The use of videobuf is the main problem.
If Sören wants to become an active maintainer for this driver, then the
vb2 conversion would be the first step. But there is a lot more that can
be done, I'm sure.
Yes he wants, that is his offer to the VDR-community.
He just wants a kind of guarantee, that the driver for the fullfeatured
cards he owns stays in the kernel.
That is understandable for me, he would do the job voluntary without
been payed.
There is a long lasting controversy about the deprecated 3 DVB-API-files
for the av7110 driver.
Sören stated he is tired about that discussions and looking for
permanent solution without having to rewrite the whole driver.
In this case I'm just the messenger, but I would also prefer a permanent
solution.
That is why I made the suggestion with the driver specific UAPI file.
The av7110 driver is only driver using this API-part.
And the modification is fairly easy and the impact minimal.
May that be a compromise all parties can live with?
Regards,
Stefan
The further deferring of the removal by a few years would be a kind of
solution for me too.
But I don't think it's a good one.
Any other ideas?
As a pragmatic user I'm interested in a solution to keep my cards running.
Probably finding a compromise all parties can live with.
I'm not interested in a lengthy discussion about APIs leading to nowhere.
Me neither.
Right now there are two options:
1) removal of the analog video support, keeping DVB support
2) convert the driver to vb2
If Sören steps up as the new maintainer and does the vb2 conversion, then
that would be the best solution. If nobody steps in, then I will most likely
choose option 1 in a few months.
Regards,
Hans
