I had previously viewed this list, and the linux-media list creation discussion, from my narrow perspective of wanting to get a single device working, so I only read list traffic that seemed related to that goal. The overall reality far is larger than I had initially suspected.
Reading this thread makes it clear to me that the various lists we're discussing means that the general topic of Linux video/audio media is:
1. A very large topic!
2. A "basket of snakes" that a) are intimately interconnected, and b) won't be easily untangled.
In the early days of the Internet (1981, for me), we created Usenet newsgroups instead of mail lists. The newsgroup creation process (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/creating-newsgroups/part1/) ensured the focus and audience were agreed to (outside of the alt domain, of course). The Usenet newsgroup naming system also provided a natural hierarchy for list refinement and specialization, so a top-level group would be created, with sub-level groups added only when needed. Most importantly, an initial newsgroup FAQ would be generated that would be automatically posted every month, and updated as needed (it was a permanent thread).
With the complexity of linux media, and the needs of the users, developers, and testers, I'd recommend creating and periodically posting a list FAQ that provides the following:
1. An overview of the purpose of this list, access methods (vger, gmane, etc.), including how to search the archives.
2. Pointers to other relevant lists (each of which would have complementary FAQs).
3. Links for newbie users (including things like MythTV and hardware compatibility pages).
4. Links to newbie developers and testers (repository locations, building from source, etc.).
Hopefully, a periodic FAQ can help limit repetitive questions, reduce total traffic, and go a long way toward satisfying the needs of all list subscribers and posters.
The alternative, creating more lists with narrower focus, seems impractical at this point. Splitting the "basket of snakes" into more baskets seems to mean we'll just have snakes everywhere, each trying to be in every basket. The underlying problem seems to be that the current Linux media architecture (as created and maintained by developers) doesn't map cleanly to user perspectives and applications (webcams, DVRs, video production, etc.). It's a many-to-many mapping that may be difficult to optimize into any practical number of smaller low-traffic lists with limited cross-posting.
Would a set of FAQs, one per list, be useful to help manage this situation?
-BobC
Andy Walls wrote:
On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 10:24 -0500, Devin Heitmueller wrote:
I spent the morning giving some consideration to the comments people
made regarding the merging of the mailing lists. As with most
attempts at an optimization, there are cases that get more efficient
and cases that get less efficient. If done properly, the important
cases improve in efficiency while the cases that are less critical end
up a little less efficient.
Clearly, there are two classes of users on the mailing lists: those
who read it and those who read it *and* actively contribute to it.
One of the key goals behind merging the lists was to make it more
efficient for those who have to reply to emails to not have to deal
with duplicated content, since in reality a large portion of the
emails come from people who want their device to work, and don't even
know the differences between acronyms like ATSC, QAM, DVB-T, DVB-C,
analog, etc.
Looking at the people who have responded to this thread, and the
number of threads they have actually contributed on in the last year,
the disparity is obvious:
People "in favor" of the lists being merged
118 Patrick Boettcher
205 Hans Verkuil
38 Mike Isely
196 Devin Heitmueller
"hundreds" Mauro Carvalho Chehab
People "against" of the lists being merged
2 Lars Hanisch
17 user.vdr
16 Klaus Schmidinger
2 Bob Cunningham
10 Tomas Drajsajtl
17 Ales Jurik
Yup, it's the developers who are posting on a regular basis who feel
the pain of the two different lists.
Just to interject, I feel the pain of at least 4/5 lists right now:
video4linux, linux-dvb, linux-media, ivtv-users, ivtv-devel
So any reduction in the number of lists suits me just fine, but not for
reasons of personal mail management, but for distribution of information
to a wide audience.
For example, to reach all the cx18 users, to let them know of a change
that may impact them without any testing feedback, I have to "broadcast"
to all the lists except the ivtv-devel list. Then unfortunatley
feedback from users, who for some reason or another can't/don't post to
the other lists, is missed by users on the other lists.
I like the lists for the interactive creation/accumulation of knowledge
about a particular device or subsystem. Subsystem (dvb, v4l)
information will likely rarely crosses list topic boundaries, but device
information will probably do so much more often due to hybrid cards,
silicon tuners, etc.
So on the "intake" of information
1) a single list helps for consolidation of knowledge, but doesn't help
organization - that must be done later
2) multiple lists help for organization of knowledge, but don't help
with consolidation of knowledge on related details from the separate
lists - that must be done later
So between the two postprocessing activites in the above -
organization/sorting once it hits the single list; or searching or
consolidating, from separate lists, knowledge on a related detail -
a) which provides the most benefit on the amount to work done? (Who
benefits? who does the work?)
b) which scheme produces/amasses "higher quality" knowledge for the
least amount of work?
(I'm not going to provide an answer for those, but I will note that the
LKML appears to host discussions on many subsystems in the Linux Kernel
in one list. So I suspect there is some benefit to amassed, but
unsorted knowledge.)
It's the people who are actively
replying to issues, dealing with problems, and trying to keep track of
it all who want the lists merged. That said, I personally don't feel
any guilt in inconveniencing a few users who are not contributing if
it makes it easier for the people who contribute to the list on a
daily basis.
I would love to hear more from people who have contributed to more
than 20 threads who think having the two lists are a good idea. I
doubt there will be many of them.
It seems like to cut the baby in half would be to have multiple separate
users lists and one consolidated devel list. (We had a three list
configuration before, but development requests/bug reports from users
were rarely discussed on the v4l-dvb-maintainers' list as it wasn't
billed to the public on the linuxtv.org site.)
I was also giving some thought to the notion of a having separate
lists for users versus developers. While this works in some
communities, I am not confident it would be appropriate for ours.
Why? Because the notion of a "users" list is only useful in cases
where you have a large pool of users who are willing to answer
questions for others. Look at the back history of the v4l and
linux-dvb lists, and that is nowhere to be found (aside from a few
people like CityK). The vast majority of questions are answered by a
handful of developers, and it is no more convenient for those
developers to have separate lists. In fact, it's less convenient
since it results in the developers being required to watch both lists.
Think of all the projects where the "-dev" list is high traffic, but
almost all of the traffic on the "-users" list goes unanswered.
Do you want a separate users list and you're not a developer? If so,
volunteer to help out by answering other people's emails if you know
the answer. CityK is a shining example of this - every email he
answers about one of the devices I did the driver for is an email I
don't have to answer myself, which allows me to spend more time
writing drivers. If we see lots of users helping each other out by
answering the questions of other users, only then will I see a
"-users" list as a sustainable idea that is worth pursuing.
Based on my experience with the ivtv-user and ivtv-devel list, these are
my personal, subjective observations (Hans may have a different
opinions):
1) as software for a device becomes more stable, dev list message rate
for that device drops off and user list traffic picks up. In this
case, most problems become userland app or system configuration
problems, with which many users can help, if they desire.
2) I believe the converse of 1) is true as well: the less reliable the
driver software for a device, the higher the traffic on the devel list
and the less traffic on the users list. Problems that only developers
are likely to address are common.
3) When you have a devel/user list separation, the on-topic devel list
messages are clear red flags that get developer attenion.
4) Even when you have a good users list, you're still only looking at a
small handful of dedicated users that answer a bulk of the questions.
Regards,
Andy
Devin
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