On We, May 16, 2012 at 21:58, Christian Stroetmann wrote:
On We, May 16, 2012 at 19:35, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 10:52:00AM +0100, James Bottomley wrote:
On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 09:34 -0400, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
There are a number of interesting non-volatile memory (NVM)
technologies
being developed. Some of them promise DRAM-comparable latencies and
bandwidths. At Intel, we've been thinking about various ways to
present
those to software. This is a first draft of an API that supports the
operations we see as necessary. Patches can follow easily enough once
we've settled on an API.
If we start from first principles, does this mean it's usable as DRAM?
Meaning do we even need a non-memory API for it? The only difference
would be that some pieces of our RAM become non-volatile.
I'm not talking about a specific piece of technology, I'm assuming that
one of the competing storage technologies will eventually make it to
widespread production usage. Let's assume what we have is DRAM with a
giant battery on it.
Our ST-RAM (see [1] for the original source of its description) is a
concept based on the combination of a writable volatile Random-Access
Memory (RAM) chip and a capacitor.
[...]
Boaz asked: "What is the difference from say a PCIE DRAM card with
battery"? It sits in the RAM slot.
So, while we can use it just as DRAM, we're not taking advantage of the
persistent aspect of it if we don't have an API that lets us find the
data we wrote before the last reboot. And that sounds like a filesystem
to me.
No and yes.
1. In the first place it is just a normal DRAM.
2. But due to its nature it has also many aspects of a flash memory.
So the use case is for point
1. as a normal RAM module,
and for point
2. as a file system,
which again can be used
2.1 directly by the kernel as a normal file system,
2.2 directly by the kernel by the PRAMFS
2.3 by the proposed NVMFS, maybe as a shortcut for optimization,
and
2.4 from the userspace, most potentially by using the standard VFS.
Maybe this version 2.4 is the same as point 2.2.
Or is there some impediment (like durability, or degradation on
rewrite)
which makes this unsuitable as a complete DRAM replacement?
The idea behind using a different filesystem for different NVM types is
that we can hide those kinds of impediments in the filesystem. By the
way, did you know DRAM degrades on every write? I think it's on the
order of 10^20 writes (and CPU caches hide many writes to heavily-used
cache lines), so it's a long way away from MLC or even SLC rates, but
it does exist.
As I said before, a filesystem for the different NVM types would not
be enough. These things are more complex due the possibility that they
can be used very flexbily.
Alternatively, if it's not really DRAM, I think the UNIX file
abstraction makes sense (it's a piece of memory presented as something
like a filehandle with open, close, seek, read, write and mmap), but
it's less clear that it should be an actual file system. The reason is
that to present a VFS interface, you have to already have fixed the
format of the actual filesystem on the memory because we can't nest
filesystems (well, not without doing artificial loopbacks). Again,
this
might make sense if there's some architectural reason why the flash
region has to have a specific layout, but your post doesn't shed any
light on this.
We can certainly present a block interface to allow using unmodified
standard filesystems on top of chunks of this NVM. That's probably not
the optimum way for a filesystem to use it though; there's really no
point in constructing a bio to carry data down to a layer that's simply
going to do a memcpy().
--
I also saw the use cases by Boaz that are
Journals of other FS, which could be done on top of the NVMFS for
example, but is not really what I have in mind, and
Execute in place, for which an Elf loader feature is needed.
Obviously, this use case was envisioned by me as well.
For direct rebooting the checkpointing of standard RAM is also a
needed function. The decision what is trashed and what is marked as
persistent RAM content has to be made by the RAM experts of the Linux
developers or the user. I even think that this is a special use case
on its own with many options.
Because it is now about 1 year ago when I played around with the
conceptual hardware aspects of anUninterruptible Power RAM (UPRAM) like
the ST-RAM, I looked in more detail at the software side yesterday and
today. So let me please add my first use case that I had in mind last
year and coined now:
Hybrid Hibernation (HyHi) or alternatively Suspend-to-NVM,
which is similar to hybrid sleep and hibernation, but also differs a
little bit due to the uninterruptible power feature.
But as it can be seen easily here again, even with this 1 use case exist
two paths to handle the NVM that are as:
1. RAM and
2. FS,
so that it leads a further time to the discussion, if hibernation should
be a kernel or a user space function (see [1] and [2] for more
information related with the discussion about uswsup (userspace software
suspend) and suspend2, and [3] for uswsup and [4] for TuxOnIce).
Eventually, there is an interest to reuse some functions or code.
Have fun in the sun
C. Stroetmann
[1] ST-RAM www.ontonics.com/innovation/pipeline.htm#st-ram
[1] LKML: Pavel Machek: RE: suspend2 merge lkml.org/lkml/2007/4/24/405
[2] KernelTrap: Linux: Reviewung Suspend2 kerneltrap.org/node/6766
[3] suspend.sourceforge.net
[4] tuxonice.net
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