On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 at 20:06, Amir Goldstein <amir73il@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > >>> Apart from that, I still fail to get some thoughts (apart from > > >>> unprivileged > > >>> mounts) how EROFS + overlayfs combination fails on automative real > > >>> workloads > > >>> aside from "ls -lR" (readdir + stat). > > >>> > > >>> And eventually we still need overlayfs for most use cases to do > > >>> writable > > >>> stuffs, anyway, it needs some words to describe why such < 1s > > >>> difference is > > >>> very very important to the real workload as you already mentioned > > >>> before. > > >>> > > >>> And with overlayfs lazy lookup, I think it can be close to ~100ms or > > >>> better. > > >>> > > >> > > >> If we had an overlay.fs-verity xattr, then I think there are no > > >> individual features lacking for it to work for the automotive usecase > > >> I'm working on. Nor for the OCI container usecase. However, the > > >> possibility of doing something doesn't mean it is the better technical > > >> solution. > > >> > > >> The container usecase is very important in real world Linux use today, > > >> and as such it makes sense to have a technically excellent solution for > > >> it, not just a workable solution. Obviously we all have different > > >> viewpoints of what that is, but these are the reasons why I think a > > >> composefs solution is better: > > >> > > >> * It is faster than all other approaches for the one thing it actually > > >> needs to do (lookup and readdir performance). Other kinds of > > >> performance (file i/o speed, etc) is up to the backing filesystem > > >> anyway. > > >> > > >> Even if there are possible approaches to make overlayfs perform better > > >> here (the "lazy lookup" idea) it will not reach the performance of > > >> composefs, while further complicating the overlayfs codebase. (btw, did > > >> someone ask Miklos what he thinks of that idea?) > > >> > > > > > > Well, Miklos was CCed (now in TO:) > > > I did ask him specifically about relaxing -ouserxarr,metacopy,redirect: > > > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-unionfs/20230126082228.rweg75ztaexykejv@wittgenstein/T/#mc375df4c74c0d41aa1a2251c97509c6522487f96 > > > but no response on that yet. > > > > > > TBH, in the end, Miklos really is the one who is going to have the most > > > weight on the outcome. > > > > > > If Miklos is interested in adding this functionality to overlayfs, you are going > > > to have a VERY hard sell, trying to merge composefs as an independent > > > expert filesystem. The community simply does not approve of this sort of > > > fragmentation unless there is a very good reason to do that. > > > > > >> For the automotive usecase we have strict cold-boot time requirements > > >> that make cold-cache performance very important to us. Of course, there > > >> is no simple time requirements for the specific case of listing files > > >> in an image, but any improvement in cold-cache performance for both the > > >> ostree rootfs and the containers started during boot will be worth its > > >> weight in gold trying to reach these hard KPIs. > > >> > > >> * It uses less memory, as we don't need the extra inodes that comes > > >> with the overlayfs mount. (See profiling data in giuseppes mail[1]). > > > > > > Understood, but we will need profiling data with the optimized ovl > > > (or with the single blob hack) to compare the relevant alternatives. > > > > My little request again, could you help benchmark on your real workload > > rather than "ls -lR" stuff? If your hard KPI is really what as you > > said, why not just benchmark the real workload now and write a detailed > > analysis to everyone to explain it's a _must_ that we should upstream > > a new stacked fs for this? > > > > I agree that benchmarking the actual KPI (boot time) will have > a much stronger impact and help to build a much stronger case > for composefs if you can prove that the boot time difference really matters. > > In order to test boot time on fair grounds, I prepared for you a POC > branch with overlayfs lazy lookup: > https://github.com/amir73il/linux/commits/ovl-lazy-lowerdata Sorry about being late to the party... Can you give a little detail about what exactly this does? Thanks, Miklos
