Anything done to RDBs for Linux must remain 100.000% compatible with existing
Amiga equipment. Otherwise, what's the point of bothering to use RDBs?
Note, as an experiment I had a CrossDOS partition on a hard disk briefly. So
some amazing nonsense is possible. I concluded that for me it was not something
I wanted to do. Alternative techniques worked well enough.
That brings to the fore an interesting question. Why bother with RDBs over 2TB
unless you want a disk with one single partition? This Win10 monster I am using
has a modest BIOS driver partition for the OS and a giant data partition. That
smaller partition would easily work with any RDB/Filesystem combination since
2.0. So there are some good workarounds that are probably "safer" and at least
as flexible as RDBs, one Linux has used for a very long time, too.
With that it is easy in concept to put together a dual boot system with all the
disks and partitions readable if you play the proper games at the filesystem
level and keep individual partitions small. The filesystem would have to take on
some of the attributes of a device driver, though. A 281 TB disk made up of 2 TB
partitions should be possible to create if you think it through. (Note that with
RDBs the CHS disk description is purely an abstraction that has no relationship
to anything inside the disk. The same tricks could exist at the filesystem level.)
As for existing tools screwing up, do you think that is an excuse to perpetuate
the failure?
If we are speaking Linux for m68k, what does it do when confronted with which is
described with a size larger than 32 bits? Before it had everything inside it
that refers to positions within a file by byte index with an __int64 type of
storage did it throw up it's hands, corrupt the disk, or what? If the m68k Linux
is a failure perhaps it doesn't matter what you do for Linuxoids. (I'll stick
with the x64 version in that case. And I never go back to earlier versions for
games since I consider a good compiler is the best game around. It's better than
a blank piece of paper for possibilities.)
As I have said, for the RDB parser fix the famndool thing. Do fix it right in
such a manner that if somebody compiles it against a version with no 64 bit
device code it will throw a proper overflow error and protect the user. Users
are dumb. We like to think of ourselves as smart. Let's try to be smart about
this where we can so fingers can't point back at us rather than the fool that
made some other error.
And do remember, I am merely (and vociferously) advising rather than dictating.
You don't need my approval to proceed. I may want my name noted as an early
contributor only. Meanwhile I spit out ideas as they come to me. One or more of
them might be good. And offering alternatives is better than simply saying "No"
most of the time.
If people are using RDBs for TB level disks I doubt they can remember which is
the left shoe when they are getting dressed in the morning before going out in
the yard to beat some dead horses. Or else maybe they just want to see how far
they can flog the m68k architecture as a mental challenge. In that case, taking
it too seriously could hurt. Note that I am mostly ignoring m68k Linux. People
using that are hard core. People using x86/x64 Linux aren't such hard core
folks. And I bet most of them want to read the disks so they can copy stuff to
Amiga Forever or WinUAE running on other architectures. So TB is not likely to
be an issue for them, either.
{^_^}
On 20180627 22:43, Michael Schmitz wrote:
Joanne,
Linux on m68k has supported lseek64 (or llseek) for a long time (from glibc
version 2.1 according to what I found). About the only area where we are limited
by 32 bits is the virtual memory size.
I'm not proposing to modify the RDB format definition, though an extension to
store 64 bit offsets separate from the 32 bit ones would be one way to make
certain such disks are safe to use on 3.1 and earlier versions of AmigaOS.
(Another one would be to modify the disk drivers on older versions to do the
offset calculation in 64 bit, and check for overflow just as we do here. Not
sure whether that's feasible. And as you so eloquently describe, we can't rely
on users listening.)
Either way, we need the cooperation of partitioning tool writers to ensure
partition information that is prone to overflows is never stored in the 32 bit,
classic RDB. That appears to have failed already, as Martin's experience
illustrates.
I'm only concerned with fixing the (dangerous) but in the Linux partition format
parser for RDB. Refusing to use any partitions that will cause havoc on old
AmigaOS versions is all I can do to try and get the users' attention.
Your warning makes me wonder whether the log message should just say 'report
this bug to linux-m68k@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx' to at least try and educate any that
respond about the dangers of their partitioning scheme before telling them about
the override option. Problem with that is, in about three years no one will
remember any of this ...
Cheers,
Michael
Am 28.06.2018 um 15:44 schrieb jdow:
Michael, as long as m68k only supports int fseek( int ) 4 GB * block
size is your HARD limit. Versions that support __int64 fseek64( __int64
) can work with larger disks. RDBs could include RDSK and a new set of
other blocks that replace the last two characters with "64" and use
__int64 where needed in the various values. That way a clever disk
partitioner could give allow normal (32 bit) RDB definitions where
possible. Then at least SOME of the disk could be supported AND a very
clever filesystem that abstracts very large disks properly could give
access to the whole disk. (Read the RDBs first 32 bits. Then if a
filesystem or driveinit was loaded re-read the RDBs to see if new 64 bit
partitions are revealed.
I could be wrong but I do not think RDBs could be safely modified any
other way to work. And, trust me as I bet this is still true, you will
need a SERIOUSLY good bomb shelter on the Moon if you change RDBs.
Suppose Joe Amigoid uses it, and then Joe Amigoid loads Amigados 2.4
because he wants to run a game that crashes on anything newer. Then Joe
got far enough something writes to the disk and data is corrupted. Note
further that Amigoids do NOT, repeat NOT, listen to facts in such cases.
Hell, some of them never listened to facts about an incident at Jerry
Pournelle's place when a 1.1 DPaint session with Kelly Freas hung and we
lost a delightful drawing. Jerry reported it. Amigoids screamed. I tried
to tell them I was there, it was my machine, and 1.1 was, indeed, crap.
{o.o}
On 20180627 02:00, Michael Schmitz wrote:
Joanne,
I'm not at all allergic to avoiding RDB at all cost for new disks. If
AmigaOS 4.1 supports more recent partition formats, all the better.
This is all about supporting use of legacy RDB disks on Linux (though
2 TB does stretch the definition of 'legacy' a little). My interest in
this is to ensure we can continue to use RDB format disks on m68k
Amiga computers which have no other way to boot Linux from disk.
Not proposing to change the RDB format at all, either. Just trying to
make sure we translate RDB info into Linux 512-byte block offset and
size numbers correctly. The kernel won't modify the RDB at all
(intentionally, that is - with the correct choice of partition sizes,
Martin might well have wiped out his RDB with the current version of
the parser).
The choice of refusing to mount a disk (or mounting read-only) rests
with the VFS drivers alone - AFFS in that case. Not touching any of
that. At partition scan time, we only have the option of making the
partition available (with a warning printed), or refusing to make it
available to the kernel. Once it's made available, all bets are off.
From what Martin writes, his test case RDB was valid and worked as
expected on 32 bit AmigaOS (4.1). Apparently, that version has the
necessary extensions to handle the large offsets resulting from 2 TB
disks. Not sure what safeguards are in place when connecting such a
disk to older versions of AmigaOS, but that is a different matter
entirely.
The overflows in partition offset and size are the only ones I can see
in the partition parser - there is no other overflow I've identified.
I just stated that in order to place a partition towards the end of a
2 TB disk, the offset calculation will overflow regardless of what
combination of rdb->rdb_BlockBytes and sector addresses stored in the
RDB (in units of 512 byte blocks) we use:
blksize = be32_to_cpu( rdb->rdb_BlockBytes ) / 512;
nr_sects = (be32_to_cpu(pb->pb_Environment[10]) + 1 -
be32_to_cpu(pb->pb_Environment[9])) *
be32_to_cpu(pb->pb_Environment[3]) *
be32_to_cpu(pb->pb_Environment[5]) *
blksize;
if (!nr_sects)
continue;
start_sect = be32_to_cpu(pb->pb_Environment[9]) *
be32_to_cpu(pb->pb_Environment[3]) *
be32_to_cpu(pb->pb_Environment[5]) *
blksize;
But in the interest of avoiding any accidental use of a RDB partition
where calculations currently overflow, I'll make the default behaviour
to bail out (instead of using wrong offset or size as we currently
do). Given the 'eat_my_RDB_disk=1' boot option, the user may proceed
at their own risk (though I still can't see what harm should result
from now translating a well formed v4.1 2 TB disk RDB correctly for
the first time).
Whether or not Linux correctly handles AFFS filesystems larger than 1
TB is a matter for VFS experts. Bailing out on nr_sects overflowing
ought to prevent accidental use of AFFS filesystems on RDB disks which
I suppose is the majority of use cases.
Bugs in partitioning tools on Linux are entirely out of scope - the
partitioning tools bypass the partition structure discovered by the
kernel, and work straight on the raw device. No protecting against that.
If you can point out a way to cause data loss with these precautions,
for a disk 2 TB or larger that was partitioned and used on a recent
version or AmigaOS supporting such large disks, I'd consider omitting
the 'eat_my_RDB_disk' boot option, and just bail out as the only safe
option.
Cheers,
Michael
Am 27.06.2018 um 18:24 schrieb jdow:
You allergic to using a GPT solution? It will get away from some of the
evils that RDB has inherent in it because they are also features?
(Loading a filesystem or DriveInit code from RDBs is just asking for a
nearly impossible to remove malware infection.) Furthermore, any 32 bit
system that sees an RDSK block is going to try to translate it. If you
add a new RDB format you are going to get bizarre and probably quite
destructive results from the mistake. Fail safe is a rather good notion,
methinks.
Personally I figure this is all rather surreal. 2TG of junk on an Amiga
system seems utterly outlandish to me. You cited another overflow
potential. There are at least three we've identified, I believe. Are you
100% sure there are no more? The specific one you mention of translating
RDB to Linux has a proper solution in the RDB reader. It should recover
such overflow errors in the RDB as it can with due care and polish. It
should flag any other overflow error it detects within the RDBs and
return an error such as to leave the disk unmounted or mounted read-only
if you feel like messing up a poor sod's backups. The simple solution is
to read each of the variables with the nominal RDB size and convert it
to uint64_t before calculating byte indices.
However, consider my inputs as advice from an adult who has seen the
Amiga Elephant so to speak. I am not trying to assert any control. Do as
you wish; but, I would plead with you to avoid ANY chance you can for
the user to make a bonehead stupid move and lose all his treasured disk
archives. Doing otherwise is very poor form.
{o.o} Joanne "Said enough, she has" Dow
On 20180626 18:07, Michael Schmitz wrote:
Joanne,
As far as I have been able to test, the change is backwards compatible
(RDB partitions from an old disk 80 GB disk are still recognized OK).
That"s only been done on an emulator though.
Your advice about the dangers of using RDB disks that would have
failed the current Linux RDB parser on legacy 32 bit systems is well
taken though. Maybe Martin can clarify that for me - was the 2 TB disk
in question ever used on a 32 bit Amiga system?
RDB disk format is meant for legacy use only, so I think we can get
away with printing a big fat warning during boot, advising the user
that the oversize RDB partition(s) scanned are not compatible with
legacy 32 bit AmigaOS. With the proposed fix they will work under both
AmigaOS 4.1 and Linux instead of truncating the first overflowing
partition at disk end and trashing valid partitions that overlap,
which is what Martin was after.
If that still seems too risky, we can make the default behaviour to
bail out once a potential overflow is detected, and allow the user to
override that through a boot parameter. I'd leave that decision up for
the code review on linux-block.
Two more comments: Linux uses 512 byte block sizes for the partition
start and size calculations, so a change of the RDB blocksize to
reduce the block counts stored in the RDB would still result in the
same overflow. And amiga-fdisk is indeed utterly broken and needs
updating (along with probably most legacy m68k partitioners). Adrian
has advertised parted as replacement for the old tools - maybe this
would make a nice test case for parted?
Cheers,
Michael
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 9:45 PM, jdow <jdow@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
If it is not backwards compatible I for one would refuse to use it.
And if
it still mattered that much to me I'd also generate a reasonable
alternative. Modifying RDBs nay not be even an approximation of a
good idea.
You'd discover that as soon as an RDB uint64_t disk is tasted by a
uint32_t
only system. If it is for your personal use then you're entirely
free to
reject my advice and are probably smart enough to keep it working for
yourself.
GPT is probably the right way to go. Preserve the ability to read
RDBs for
legacy disks only.
{^_^}
On 20180626 01:31, Michael Schmitz wrote:
Joanne,
I think we all agree that doing 32 bit calculations on 512-byte block
addresses that overflow on disks 2 TB and larger is a bug, causing
the
issues Martin reported. Your patch addresses that by using the
correct
data type for the calculations (as do other partition parsers that
may
have to deal with large disks) and fixes Martin's bug, so appears
to be
the right thing to do.
Using 64 bit data types for disks smaller than 2 TB where
calculations
don't currently overflow is not expected to cause new issues, other
than
enabling use of disk and partitions larger than 2 TB (which may have
ramifications with filesystems on these partitions). So
comptibility is
preserved.
Forcing larger block sizes might be a good strategy to avoid overflow
issues in filesystems as well, but I can't see how the block size
stored
in the RDB would enforce use of the same block size in filesystems.
We'll have to rely on the filesystem tools to get that right, too.
Linux
AFFS does allow block sizes up to 4k (VFS limitation) so this should
allow partitions larger than 2 TB to work already (but I suspect Al
Viro
may have found a few issues when he looked at the AFFS code so I
won't
say more). Anyway partitioning tools and filesystems are unrelated to
the Linux partition parser code which is all we aim to fix in this
patch.
If you feel strongly about unknown ramifications of any
filesystems on
partitions larger than 2 TB, say so and I'll have the kernel print a
warning about these partitions.
I'll get this patch tested on Martin's test case image as well as
on a
RDB image from a disk known to currently work under Linux (thanks
Geert
for the losetup hint). Can't do much more without procuring a working
Amiga disk image to use with an emulator, sorry. The Amiga I plan to
use
for tests is a long way away from my home indeed.
Cheers,
Michael
Am 26.06.18 um 17:17 schrieb jdow:
As long as it preserves compatibility it should be OK, I suppose.
Personally I'd make any partitioning tool front end gently force the
block size towards 8k as the disk size gets larger. The file systems
may also run into 2TB issues that are not obvious. An unused blocks
list will have to go beyond a uint32_t size, for example. But a
block
list (OFS for sure, don't remember for the newer AFS) uses a tad
under
1% of the disk all by itself. A block bitmap is not quite so bad.
{^_-}
Just be sure you are aware of all the ramifications when you make a
change. I remember thinking about this for awhile and then
determining
I REALLY did not want to think about it as my brain was getting tied
into a gordian knot.
{^_^}
On 20180625 19:23, Michael Schmitz wrote:
Joanne,
Martin's boot log (including your patch) says:
Jun 19 21:19:09 merkaba kernel: [ 7891.843284] sdb: RDSK (512)
sdb1
(LNX^@)(res 2 spb 1) sdb2 (JXF^D)(res 2 spb 1) sdb3 (DOS^C)(res
2 spb
4)
Jun 19 21:19:09 merkaba kernel: [ 7891.844055] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb]
Attached SCSI disk
so it's indeed a case of self inflicted damage (RDSK (512) means
512
byte blocks) and can be worked around by using a different block
size.
Your memory serves right indeed - blocksize is in 512 bytes units.
I'll still submit a patch to Jens anyway as this may bite others
yet.
Cheers,
Michael
On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 11:40 PM, jdow <jdow@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
BTW - anybody who uses 512 byte blocks with an Amiga file
system is
a famn
dool.
If memory serves the RDBs think in blocks rather than bytes so it
should
work up to 2 gigablocks whatever your block size is. 512 blocks is
2199023255552 bytes. But that wastes just a WHOLE LOT of disk in
block maps.
Go up to 4096 or 8192. The latter is 35 TB.
{^_^}
On 20180624 02:06, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
Hi.
Michael Schmitz - 27.04.18, 04:11:
test results at
https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43511
indicate the RDB parser bug is fixed by the patch given there,
so if
Martin now submits the patch, all should be well?
Ok, better be honest than having anyone waiting for it:
I do not care enough about this, in order to motivate myself
preparing
the a patch from Joanne Dow´s fix.
I am not even using my Amiga boxes anymore, not even the Sam440ep
which
I still have in my apartment.
So RDB support in Linux it remains broken for disks larger 2 TB,
unless
someone else does.
Thanks.
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