On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 04:43:14PM -0700, Dan Williams wrote: > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Dave Chinner <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 05:14:36PM +0000, Verma, Vishal L wrote: > >> On Mon, 2016-04-25 at 01:31 -0700, hch@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote: > >> > On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 06:08:37PM +0000, Verma, Vishal L wrote: > >> > > > >> > > direct_IO might fail with -EINVAL due to misalignment, or -ENOMEM > >> > > due > >> > > to some allocation failing, and I thought we should return the > >> > > original > >> > > -EIO in such cases so that the application doesn't lose the > >> > > information > >> > > that the bad block is actually causing the error. > >> > EINVAL is a concern here. Not due to the right error reported, but > >> > because it means your current scheme is fundamentally broken - we > >> > need to support I/O at any alignment for DAX I/O, and not fail due to > >> > alignbment concernes for a highly specific degraded case. > >> > > >> > I think this whole series need to go back to the drawing board as I > >> > don't think it can actually rely on using direct I/O as the EIO > >> > fallback. > >> > > >> Agreed that DAX I/O can happen with any size/alignment, but how else do > >> we send an IO through the driver without alignment restrictions? Also, > >> the granularity at which we store badblocks is 512B sectors, so it > >> seems natural that to clear such a sector, you'd expect to send a write > >> to the whole sector. > >> > >> The expected usage flow is: > >> > >> - Application hits EIO doing dax_IO or load/store io > >> > >> - It checks badblocks and discovers it's files have lost data > > > > Lots of hand-waving here. How does the application map a bad > > "sector" to a file without scanning the entire filesystem to find > > the owner of the bad sector? > > > >> - It write()s those sectors (possibly converted to file offsets using > >> fiemap) > >> * This triggers the fallback path, but if the application is doing > >> this level of recovery, it will know the sector is bad, and write the > >> entire sector > > > > Where does the application find the data that was lost to be able to > > rewrite it? > > > >> - Or it replaces the entire file from backup also using write() (not > >> mmap+stores) > >> * This just frees the fs block, and the next time the block is > >> reallocated by the fs, it will likely be zeroed first, and that will be > >> done through the driver and will clear errors > > > > There's an implicit assumption that applications will keep redundant > > copies of their data at the /application layer/ and be able to > > automatically repair it? And then there's the implicit assumption > > that it will unlink and free the entire file before writing a new > > copy, and that then assumes the the filesystem will zero blocks if > > they get reused to clear errors on that LBA sector mapping before > > they are accessible again to userspace.. > > > > It seems to me that there are a number of assumptions being made > > across multiple layers here. Maybe I've missed something - can you > > point me to the design/architecture description so I can see how > > "app does data recovery itself" dance is supposed to work? > > > > Maybe I missed something, but all these assumptions are already > present for typical block devices, i.e. sectors may go bad and a write > may make the sector usable again. The assumption we make about sectors going bad on SSDs or SRDs is that the device is about to die and needs replacing ASAP. Then RAID takes care of the rebuild completely transparently. i.e. handling and correcting bad sectors is typically done completely transparently /below/ the filesytem like so: Application Filesystem block [LBA mapping/redundancy/correction driver e.g. md/dm] driver hardware [LBA redundancy/correction e.g h/w RAID] In the case of filesystems with their own RAID/redundancy code (e.g. btrfs), then it looks like this: Application Filesystem mapping/redundancy/correction driver block driver hardware [LBA redundancy/correction e.g h/w RAID] > This patch series is extending that > out to the DAX-mmap case, but it's the same principle of "write to > clear error" that we live with in the block-I/O path. What > clarification are you looking for beyond that point? I'm asking for an actual design document that explains how moving all the redundancy and bad sector correction stuff from the LBA layer up into application space is supposed to work when applications have no clue about LBA mappings, nor tend to keep redundant data around. i.e. you're proposing this: Application Application data redundancy/correction Filesystem Block [LBA mapping/redundancy/correction driver e.g. md/dm] driver hardware And somehow all the error information from the hardware layer needs to be propagated up to the application layer, along with all the mapping information from the filesystem and block layers for the application to make sense of the hardware reported errors. I see assumptions this this "just works" but we don't have any of the relevant APIs or infrastructure to enable the application to do the hardware error->file+offset namespace mapping (i.e. filesystem reverse mapping for for file offsets and directory paths, and reverse mapping for the the block layer remapping drivers). I haven't seen any design/documentation for infrastructure at the application layer to handle redundant data and correctly transparently so I don't have any idea what the technical requirements this different IO stack places on filesystems may be. Hence I'm asking for some kind of architecture/design documentation that I can read to understand exactly what is being proposed here... Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Chinner david@xxxxxxxxxxxxx -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-ext4" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
