2008/9/16 Steven Toth <stoth@xxxxxxxxxxx>: > Tim Lucas wrote: >> Message: 7 >> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:31:16 -0400 >> From: Steven Toth <stoth@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:stoth@xxxxxxxxxxx>> >> Subject: Re: why opensource will fail >> To: Paul Chubb <paulc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> <mailto:paulc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> >> Cc: linux dvb <linux-dvb@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:linux-dvb@xxxxxxxxxxx>> >> Message-ID: <48CC2314.4090800@xxxxxxxxxxx >> <mailto:48CC2314.4090800@xxxxxxxxxxx>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Paul Chubb wrote: >> > Hi, >> > now that I have your attention:-{)= >> >> .... You've also had my attention in the past, if I recall I have you >> tips about not using cx_write, instead using cx_set/cx_clear. >> >> Your latest patch still doesn't have those changes btw. ;) >> >> >> > >> > I believe that this community has a real problem. There appears to be >> > little willingness to help and mentor newcomers. This will limit the >> > effectiveness of the community because it will hinder expansion of >> > people who are both willing and able to work on the code. Eventually >> > this issue will lead to the community dying simply because you have >> > people leaving but few joining. >> >> I disagree with everything you've just said, but that's just my opinion. >> >> >> > >> > The card I was working on has been around for a while now. There >> have >> > been three attempts so far to get it working with Linux. Two in this >> > community and one against the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> >> tree. Both attempts in this >> > community have failed not because of a lack of willingness of the >> people >> > involved to do the hard yards but because of the inability of the >> > community to mentor and help newcomers. >> >> >> Did I not try to help you? The one piece of initial feedback I gave you, >> you ignored. (see my opening statement). >> >> I'm always willing to help people, but they also have to demonstrate >> that they are applying themselves, doing basic research, asking specific >> questions ... rather than, here's my patch - and What's Wrong with it. >> >> >> > >> > The third attempt by a Czech programmer succeeded, however it is >> > dependent on the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> tree and the >> author appears to have made no >> > attempt to get the patch into the tree. The original instructions to >> > produce a driver set are in Czech. However instructions in >> english for >> > 2.6.22 are available - ubuntu gutsy. I will soon be putting up >> > instructions for 2.6.24 - hardy. They may even work for later >> revisions >> > since the big issue was incompatible versioning. >> > >> > I understand from recent posts to this list that many in the >> community >> > are disturbed by the existence of mcentral.de >> <http://mcentral.de>. Well every person from >> > now on who wants to run the Leadtek Winfast DTV1800H will be >> using that >> > tree. Since the card is excellent value for what it is, there >> should be >> > lots of them. Not helping newcomers who are trying to add cards >> has led >> > and will lead to increased fragmentation. >> >> So port the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> details into the >> kernel, I doubt they'll be >> significantly different.... we're talking about adding support for an >> existing card, it's not a lot of engineering work. >> >> >> > >> > And before you say or think that we are all volunteers here, I am a >> > volunteer also. I have spent close to 3 weeks on this code and it is >> > very close to working. The biggest difference between working code in >> > the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> tree and the patch I was >> working on is the firmware that >> > is used. >> >> ... and your efforts are valuable. >> >> Markus (mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de>) is paid to work on Linux, >> just to be clear. >> >> Your last message on that thread said: "xc2028 2-0061: xc2028/3028 >> firmware name not set!" >> >> You could of asked a second time before taking the opportunity to vent, >> and taking the community to task. >> >> Showing patience and perseverance is what most other newcomers >> demonstrate. >> >> >> > >> > Finally you might consider that if few developers are prepared to >> work >> > on the v4l-dvb tree, then much of the fun will disappear because >> those >> > few will have to do everything. >> >> Whether we have 3 people or 30, it's never enough. >> >> In my experience, people who join the list then vent all over it are >> rarely around long enough to make a difference. They often think they >> know more about the community than the community itself. >> >> On the other hand, the people who join and ask well thought out >> questions, describe their failures and working assumptions, then >> demonstrate a willingness to learn attract a mentor very quickly. >> >> ... just my opinion of course :) >> >> If you want to make progress with the leadtek card then another look at >> the feedback I gave you, then approach the group again with a more >> insightful email. >> >> Maybe someone will help you then. >> >> - Steve >> >> >> I would like to respond to this because I have been sending messages to >> the list asking for help, but after a couple initial suggestions, I have >> been completely ignored. I need to work with the cx23885 drivers with >> analog support that Steve wrote, because they are the only ones around, >> but how am I supposed to get them to work if the person who wrote them >> will not help me. I even reported progress, but I was still ignored. >> In fact, I saw other people get help with questions that were as silly >> as mine, but for some reason I cannot get any help from Steve or anyone >> else on the list. I have said before that I am willing to do some of >> the work, but there is a steep learning curve. >> >> If I have done something against the rules or to deserve this treatment, >> I would appreciate someone letting me know instead of just ignoring me. >> Where else can I go for help? >> >> If anyone has any suggestions about what I can do, please see my latest >> posts to the list about analog support for cx23885 cards. Thank you. >> >> --Tim > > Tim, > > Just to be clear, they're not my patches I just offered to merge them. :) > > The people who can help are busy working on other projects, that's just > the way Linux development works. I tend to work on Hauppauge hardware > projects first then anything else if I have time. > > Too many people come to the list and have their problems solved and give > nothing in return. This is bad. They walk away feeling pretty happy but > they don't stop behind to help 2 other people. If everyone I helped > stopped to help 2 other people then the group would be a better place. > Likewise for all of the other developers in this group. > > In the end, people stop helping each other because it's a non-stop tide > of help requests, for little in return. > > I'm not suggesting that you do that, I'm suggest that's why the group is > the way it is. > > Stick around, when people have enough time you'll get some attention. > > - Steve > > _______________________________________________ > linux-dvb mailing list > linux-dvb@xxxxxxxxxxx > http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb > I think the main problem is not having separate lists for development and help/support. The development efforts suffer a lot from this. I did experience that silence myself when working on adding support for my device; at first, the linuxtv community seemed to ignore me, but after a lot of patience and insistence, I got positive replays from Antii and others. Then, I knew the problem was the high load of the list (Apart from regular e-mail, I'm subscribed to about a dozen lists, but 80% of my inbox is from linuxtv). Anyway, IMHO there's no easy solution to this: for instance, a problem regarding compilation on Ubuntu with the latest svn branch is hard to classify as development or support or both. Maybe it'd be a better idea to have a lot of lists for specific tasks: one for core/api development, one for new devices and drivers, one for new channel files, seamless patches and such, and one for suggestions and requests. I don't know. Any other ideas? -- Román _______________________________________________ linux-dvb mailing list linux-dvb@xxxxxxxxxxx http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb
