On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 9:59 AM, Yu-cheng Yu <yu-cheng.yu@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Tue, 2018-06-19 at 09:44 -0700, Kees Cook wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 7:50 AM, Andy Lutomirski <luto@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > On Jun 18, 2018, at 5:52 PM, Kees Cook <keescook@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >> > > wrote: >> > > Following Linus's request for "slow introduction" of new security >> > > features, likely the best approach is to default to "relaxed" >> > > (with a >> > > warning about down-grades), and allow distros/end-users to pick >> > > "forced" if they know their libraries are all CET-enabled. >> > I still don’t get what “relaxed” is for. I think the right design >> > is: >> > >> > Processes start with CET on or off depending on the ELF note, but >> > they start with CET unlocked no matter what. They can freely switch >> > CET on and off (subject to being clever enough not to crash if they >> > turn it on and then return right off the end of the shadow stack) >> > until they call ARCH_CET_LOCK. >> I'm fine with this. I'd expect modern loaders to just turn on CET and >> ARCH_CET_LOCK immediately and be done with it. :P > > This is the current implementation. If the loader has CET in its ELF > header, it is executed with CET on. The loader will turn off CET if > the application being loaded does not support it (in the ELF header). > The loader calls ARCH_CET_LOCK before passing to the application. But > how do we handle dlopen? I thought CET_LOCK would not get set in "relaxed" mode, due to dlopen usage, and that would be the WARN case. People without dlopen concerns can boot with "enforced" mode? If a system builder knows there are no legacy dlopens they build with enforced enabled, etc. >> > Ptrace gets new APIs to turn CET on and off and to lock and unlock >> > it. If an attacker finds a “ptrace me and turn off CET” gadget, >> > then they might as well just do “ptrace me and write shell code” >> > instead. It’s basically the same gadget. Keep in mind that the >> > actual sequence of syscalls to do this is incredibly complicated. >> Right -- if an attacker can control ptrace of the target, we're way >> past CET. The only concern I have, though, is taking advantage of >> expected ptracing. For example: browsers tend to have crash handlers >> that launch a ptracer. If ptracing disabled CET for all threads, this >> won't by safe: an attacker just gains control in two threads, crashes >> one to get the ptracer to attach, which disables CET in the other >> thread and the attacker continues ROP as normal. As long as the >> ptrace >> disabling is thread-specific, I think this will be okay. > > If ptrace can turn CET on/off and it is thread-specific, do we still > need ptrace lock/unlock? Does it provide anything beyond what PR_DUMPABLE does? -Kees -- Kees Cook Pixel Security -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-doc" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
