Hey Miguel,
Sorry for the late reply ;)
On 27-06-2022 19:44, Miguel Ojeda wrote:
Hi Olliver,
On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 5:11 PM Olliver Schinagl <oliver@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I apologize for being late to the party and for potentially using the
wrong thread, but I recall somewhere in v5 that it was best to respond
to the RFC for general comments.
No need to apologize! Feel free to use the latest threads or a new
thread in e.g. the rust-for-linux ML.
On 14-04-2021 20:45, ojeda@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
From: Miguel Ojeda <ojeda@xxxxxxxxxx>
Moreover, as explained above, we are taking the chance to enforce
some documentation guidelines. We are also enforcing automatic code
formatting, a set of Clippy lints, etc. We decided to go with Rust's
idiomatic style, i.e. keeping `rustfmt` defaults. For instance, this
means 4 spaces are used for indentation, rather than a tab. We are
happy to change that if needed -- we think what is important is
keeping the formatting automated
Enforcing this is great, but how will you enforce this 'everywhere'?
Right now, you can easily 'bypass' any CI put in place, and while 'for
now' this is only about the Rust infra, where this can be strongly
enforced, once we see actual drivers pop-up; these won't go through the
Rust CI before merging CI forever? A maintainer can 'just merge'
something still, right?
Indeed, but there are workarounds, for instance, we could have a bot
checking -next.
Absolutly, but with the many luitenants, many tree's, and not a single
CI source, this would still be tricky in the end; but certainly possible.
Or we could put it in an opt-in compilation mode (i.e. not for users)
where extra things are checked (like `W=`) that maintainers use so
that e.g. `allmodconfig` builds are kept clean.
Anyway, what I wanted to criticize, is the so called "keeping with
`rustfmt` defaults". It has been known, that, well Rust's defaults are
pretty biased and opinionated. For the Rust project, that's fair of
course, their code, their rules.
However, there's two arguments against that. For one, using the Rust
'style', now means there's 2 different code styles in the Kernel.
Cognitively alone, that can be quite frustrating and annoying. Having to
go back and forth between two styles can be mentally challenging which
only causes mistakes and frustration. So why change something that
already exists? Also, see my first point. Having to constantly
remember/switch to 'in this file/function the curly brace is on a
different line'. Lets try to stay consistent, the rules may not be
perfect (80 columns ;), but so far consistency is tried. OCD and Autism
etc doesn't help with this ;)
Note that the point of using `rustfmt` is that one does not need to
care about the details -- one can e.g. run the tool on file save. So
no need to remember how to do it when writing Rust.
And that's great of course, I was mearly speaking of the configuration
of rustfmt. I think as a tool it's pretty great!
Now, it is true that the Rust syntax resembles C in many cases, so
things like the curly braces for function definitions are similar
enough that we could do the same thing in both sides.
However, most Rust code uses `rustfmt` and typically also follow most
of its defaults, including the standard library, books, etc.; which
helps when reading and reusing other code. This is different from C
and C++, where as you know there is no single style (at least as
prevalent as `rustfmt`), thus one needs to become accustomed to each
project's C style (or ideally use `clang-format` to avoid having to
learn it). So while this is not relevant for C, in the case of Rust,
there is value in using the `rustfmt` style.
I think this is a pretty poor argument for following Rust's opinionated
view of the world. E.g. it's generally bad to copy/paste code to begin
with. How many 'bugs' that we know of are copy/paste bugs?
Secondly, and more importantly so; you argue 'who cares about people
with disablements, atleast its equally hard to read everywhere' which is
a very poor argument :p
Finally, it must of course be mentioned, that rust is really trying to
do an XKCD here, https://xkcd.com/927/ though I'm sure we'll get it
right this time around ;)
As for consistency, one could argue that by using `rustfmt` we are
being consistent with the rest of the Rust code out there.
But you are not, only those that follow rust's biased view. Everybody
else that has a different opinion (like die-hard C programmers) that
care enough (I'm sure there's plenty) would setup their rustfmt config
file to resemble their C code; and thus the entire premisis is broken.
Though; yes, in a perfect world it could have worked like this, but xkcd
again :)
This may be
important for those that have expressed interest on sharing some code
between kernel and userspace; as well as if we end up vendoring some
external crates (similar to what we do with `alloc` now).
This though is a fair argument I understand, it would be weird in having
2 styles in user-space and kernel-space code; though I see this
happening today as well; where developers follow kernel style for kernel
code (obviously) but use their preferred 2 or 3 space style on their
userland code. Trying to 'force' this, usually however never gets the
intended result ...
Secondly, and this is really far more important, the Rust default style
is not very inclusive, as it makes readability harder. This has been
brought up by many others in plenty of places, including the `rustfmt`
issue tracker under bug #4067 [0]. While the discussion eventually only
led to the 'fmt-rfcs' [1], where it was basically said 'you could be on
to something, but this ship has sailed 3 years ago (when nobody was
looking caring), and while we hear you, we're not going to change our
defaults anymore.
But I also agree and share these commenters pain. When the tab character
is used for indenting (and not alignment mind you), then visually
impaired (who can still be amazing coders) can more easily read code by
adjusting the width what works best to them.
With even git renaming `master` to `main` to be more inclusive, can we
also be more inclusive to us that have a hard time distinguishing narrow
indentations?
As noted in the RFC, we are happy to tweak the style to whatever
kernel developers prefer. We think the particular style is not that
important. Absent other reasons, the defaults seem OK, so we chose
that for simplicity and consistency with as most existing Rust code as
possible.
As for accessibility, I am no expert, so that may be a good point,
especially if editors cannot solve this on their end (so that everyone
could program in all languages/projects regardless of style).
Yeah, this is a common reasoning. People without disabilities often
oversee cases to those with. E.g. Traffic lights being red and green is
horrible for colorblind people; luckily enough we have 'order' to help
distinguish there for example. While I'm not colorblind myself, I often
have to remind UX designers, with their fancy LED based UI's, to think
of others as well, which always strikes them as odd first, then of
course they only start to realize this.
I'm with you that style is the least important for the functionality, no
argument there. Long-term though; this will matter of course, to those
like me, have hard times here.
Thanks, and sorry for rubbing any ones nerves, but to "some of us" this
actually matters a great deal.
No nerves were damaged :) Thanks for all the input!
P.S. would we expect inline C/Rust code mixed? What then?
Everything is possible, e.g. we could have Rust proc macros that parse
C and things like that. But if we ended up with such a thing, the
solution would be to format each accordingly to its style (indentation
could be an exception, I guess).
The first exception to the rule starts here already :p
Thanks for your thoughts,
Olliver
Cheers,
Miguel
