Am Donnerstag, dem 24.06.2021 um 12:13 +0200 schrieb Mickaël Salaün: > > On 23/06/2021 21:10, Stephan Mueller wrote: > > Am Mittwoch, dem 23.06.2021 um 20:04 +0200 schrieb Mickaël Salaün: > > > > > > On 23/06/2021 19:27, Stephan Müller wrote: > > > > Am Mittwoch, 23. Juni 2021, 19:00:29 CEST schrieb James Morris: > > > > > > > > Hi James, > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 23 Jun 2021, Stephan Mueller wrote: > > > > > > > These changes replace the use of the Linux RNG with the Jitter > > > > > > > RNG, > > > > > > > which is NIST SP800-90B compliant, to get a proper entropy input > > > > > > > and a > > > > > > > nonce as defined by FIPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you please help me understand what is missing in the current > > > > > > code > > > > > > which > > > > > > seemingly already has achieved this goal? > > > > > > > > > > The advice we have is that if an attacker knows the internal state of > > > > > the > > > > > CPU, then the output of the Jitter RNG can be predicted. > > > > > > > > Thank you for the hint. And I think such goal is worthwhile (albeit I > > > > have > > > > to > > > > admit that if an attacker is able to gain the internal state of a CPU, I > > > > would > > > > assume we have more pressing problems that a bit of entropy). > > > > > > > > Anyways, the current code does: > > > > > > > > - in regular mode: seed the DRBG with 384 bits of data from > > > > get_random_bytes > > > > > > > > - in FIPS mode: seed the DRBG with 384 bits of data from > > > > get_random_bytes > > > > concatenated with 384 bits from the Jitter RNG > > > > > > > > > > > > If I understand the suggested changes right, I would see the following > > > > changes > > > > in the patch: > > > > > > > > - in the regular case: 640 bits from get_random_bytes > > > > > > Why 640 bits? > > > > if (!reseed) > > entropylen = ((entropylen + 1) / 2) * 3; > > > > -> Entropylen is 384 in case of a security strength of 256 bits. > > > > Your code does the following if the Jitter RNG is not allocated (i.e. in > > non- > > fips mode): > > > > ret = drbg_get_random_bytes(drbg, entropy, entropylen + strength); > > > > so: entropylen + strength = 384 + 256, no? > > Correct (for entropy + nonce + pers), I thought you were referring to > just the entropy + nonce part. This change is not needed for FIPS of > course but I changed it too to use the same algorithm and lengths as > when Jitter RNG is available. > > Do you prefer to keep the current lengths (384 bits) when there is no > Jitter RNG? It seems to me that this change makes sense and could only > strengthen this case though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - in FIPS mode: 256 bits of data from get_random_bytes concatenated with > > > > 384 > > > > bits from the Jitter RNG > > > > > > In both cases there are 256 bits for the entropy input and 128 bits for > > > the nonce. > > > > I see in the code path with the Jitter RNG: > > > > ret = crypto_rng_get_bytes(drbg->jent, entropy, > > entropylen); > > > > --> 384 bits from the Jitter RNG > > > > ret = drbg_get_random_bytes(drbg, entropy + entropylen, > > + strength); > > > > --> 256 bits from get_random_bytes > > > > What am I missing here? > > OK, it is just a misunderstanding of what is where. To simplify the code > (with a fixed-length entropy array) I used the "entropy" array to store > the entropy + nonce + the automatically generated personalization string > or additional input. The user-supplied personalization string or > additional input is stored (unchanged) in the pers drbg_string. I > (briefly) explained this in the comments. > > Another difference brought by this change is that the Jitter RNG data > (i.e. entropy source) is used at the beginning (of the entropy array) > and the urandom data (i.e. random source) at the end. This strictly > follows the algorithm described in SP800-90Ar1 sections 8.6.1, 8.6.2, > 10.1.1.2 and 10.1.1.3 . > > > > > > > > If Jitter RNG is not available, then urandom is used instead, > > > which means that the system is not FIPS compliant. > > > > Agreed, the existing does does exactly the same with the exception that it > > pulls 384 bits from get_random_bytes instead of 640 in non-FIPS mode (i.e. > > when the Jitter RNG is not allocated). > > > > In FIPS mode, the current code draws 384 bits from get_random_bytes and > > separately 384 bits from the Jitter RNG. So, each data block from either > > entropy source could completely satisfy the SP800-90A requirement. > > What is the rational of using 384 (strength * 1.5) bits to draw from > get_random_bytes? > > We noticed that (as explained above) the order of these sources doesn't > follows SP800-90Ar1. > It is not clear which part and source is used for the entropy, nonce and > (maybe) personalization string. > If the random source is indeed the personalization string or the > additional input, then the pers length may not fit with the maximum > lengths specified in SP800-90Ar1 table 2 and 3. > > > > > > > > > This follows the SP800-90Ar1, section 8.6.7: [a nonce shall be] "A value > > > with at least (security_strength/2) bits of entropy". > > > > Agreed, but what is your code doing different than the existing code? > > It just fits with strength/2 for the length of the nonce. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, I am not fully sure what the benefit of the difference is: in FIPS > > > > mode > > > > (where the Jitter RNG is used), the amount of data pulled from > > > > get_random_bytes seems to be now reduced. > > > > > > We can increase the amount of data pulled from get_random_bytes (how to > > > decide the amount?), but as we understand the document, this should be > > > part of the personalization string and additional input, not the nonce. > > > > There is no need to have a personalization string or additional input. Note, > > those two values are intended to be provided by a caller or some other > > environment. > > Right, but the intent here is to strictly follow SP800-90Ar1 (hence the > use of Jitter RNG for entropy and nonce) but to still use the urandom > source, which seems to only fit in the personalization string according > to SP800-90Ar1. > > > > > If you want to stuff more seed into the DRBG, you simply enlarge the seed > > buffer and pull more from the entropy sources. I have no objections doing > > that. All I am trying to point out is that the 90A standard does not require > > more entropy than 256 bits during initialization plus 128 bits of nonce == > > 384 > > bits of data. But the DRBGs all allow providing more data as seed. > > Agreed, the user-supplied personalization string can be used to add more > data. We also want to harden the default use (i.e. without user-provided > personalization string) by automatically using non-entropy source > (urandom) though. > > > > > > I guess it may not change much according to the implementation, as for > > > the order of random and entropy concatenation, but these changes align > > > with the specifications and it should help FIPS certifications. > > > > Are you saying the order of data from the entropy sources matters in the > > entropy buffer? I have not seen that in the standard, but if you say this is > > the goal, then allow me to understand which order you want to see? > > > > The current code contains the order of: > > > > <384 bits get_random_bytes> || <384 bits Jitter RNG> > ^ ^ > personalization string? entropy+nonce > > As described in SP800-90Ar1 section 10.1.1.2: > seed_material = entropy_input || nonce || personalization_string > > As described in SP800-90Ar1 section 10.1.1.3: > seed_material = 0x01 || V || entropy_input || additional_input > > And SP800-90Ar1 section 5 defining "X || Y" as "Concatenation of two > strings X and Y. X and Y are either both bitstrings, or both byte strings". > > According to that, we would like at least: > <384 bits Jitter RNG> || <256 bits get_random_bytes> > and also enforcing the maximum length for the whole personalization > string and the additional input. And I think here we found the misconception. - SP800-90A section 8.7.1 clearly marks that a personalization string is optional. If it is not provided, the personalization string is treated as a zero-bit string in the formulas you mentioned above. This is also consistent with the CAVP testing of DRBGs conducted by NIST which allows testing of the DRBG without a personalization string. See [1] as an example (search for DRBG and click on it to see the tested options - there you see the testing with zero personalization string). - SP800-90A section 9.1 specifies that the entropy_input is: "The maximum length of the entropy_input is implementation dependent, but shall be less than or equal to the specified maximum length for the selected DRBG mechanism". For all DRBGs except the CTR DRBG without derivation function the maximum length is 2^35 as defined in table 2. As we do not have a CTR DRBG without derivation function, we can ignore that special case. With these considerations, the current DRBG code - does not mandate a personalization string or even create one by itself but allows the caller to specify one - applies an entropy_input len of 512 bits during initial seeding - applies a nonce of 128 bits during initial seeding entropy_input == <384 bits get_random_bytes> || <256 bits Jitter RNG> nonce = 128 bits Jitter RNG You asked why 384 bits from get_random_bytes. Well, the answer is exactly to cover your initial concern also raised by James Morris: some folks may not trust the Jitter RNG. Yet we need it here as it only provides 90B compliance. But folks who dislike it can treat its data providing no entropy and assume get_random_bytes provides the entropy. As both, the get_random_bytes and Jitter RNG data is concatenated, we do not destroy entropy by this operation. This implies we cover different view points at the same time. [1] https://csrc.nist.gov/projects/cryptographic-algorithm-validation-program/details?validation=33056 Ciao Stephan > > Thanks, > Mickaël
