Hi Jason, On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 04:35:48AM +0200, Jason A. Donenfeld wrote: > Hi Eric, > > On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 06:17:27PM -0700, Eric Biggers wrote: > > So, Zinc will simultaneously replace the current crypto implementations, *and* > > be "orthogonal" and "separate" from all the crypto code currently maintained by > > Herbert? You can't have your cake and eat it too... > > The plan is for it to replace many uses of the crypto API where it makes > sense, but not replace uses where it doesn't make sense. Perhaps in the > long run, over time, its usage will grow to cover those cases too, or, > perhaps instead, Zinc will form a simple basis of software crypto > algorithms in whatever future API designs crop up. In other words, like > most changes in kernel development, things happen gradually, starting > with a few good cases, and gradually growing as the need and design > arise. Please re-read what I wrote. Here I'm talking about the crypto code itself, not its users. And you still haven't answered my question about adding a new algorithm that is useful to have in both APIs. You're proposing that in most cases the crypto API part will need to go through Herbert while the implementation will need to go through you/Greg, right? Or will you/Greg be taking both? Or will Herbert take both? > > > I'm still concerned you're splitting the community in two. It will be unclear > > where new algorithms and implementations should go. Some people will choose > > Herbert and the current crypto API and conventions, and some people will choose > > you and Zinc... I still don't see clear guidelines for what will go where. > > I can try to work out some explicit guidelines and write these up for > Documentation/, if that'd make a difference for you. I don't think this > is a matter of "community splitting". On the contrary, I think Zinc will > bring communities together, inviting the larger cryptography community > to take an interest in improving the state of crypto in Linux. Either > way, the litmus test for where code should go remains pretty similar to > how it's been working so far. Are you tempted to stick it in lib/ > because that fits your programming paradigm and because you think it's > generally useful? If so, submit it to lib/zinc/. Conversely, is it only > something used in the large array of options provided by dmcrypt, ipsec, > afalg, etc? Submit it to the crypto API. > > If you think this criteria is lacking, I'm amenable to adjusting that > and changing it, especially as situations and designs change and morph > over time. But that seems like a fairly decent starting point. A documentation file for Zinc is a good idea. Some of the information in your commit messages should be moved there too. > > > Please reach out to Herbert to find a sane solution > > crypto development without choosing "sides". > > Please, don't politicize this. This has nothing to do with "sides". This > has to do with which paradigm makes sense for implementing a particular > algorithm. I'm not trying to "politicize" this, but rather determine your criteria for including algorithms in Zinc, which you haven't made clear. Since for the second time you've avoided answering my question about whether you'd allow the SM4 cipher in Zinc, and you designed WireGuard to be "cryptographically opinionated", and you were one of the loudest voices calling for the Speck cipher to be removed, and your justification for Zinc complains about cipher modes from "90s cryptographers", I think it's reasonable for people to wonder whether as the Zinc (i.e. Linux crypto library) maintainer you will restrict the inclusion of crypto algorithms to the ones you prefer, rather than the ones that users need. Note that the kernel is used by people all over the world and needs to support various standards, protocols, and APIs that use different crypto algorithms, not always the ones we'd like; and different users have different preferences. People need to know whether the Linux kernel's crypto library will meet (or be allowed to meet) their crypto needs. > And everything that goes in Zinc gets to be used seamlessly > by the crypto API anyway, through use of the trivial stub glue code, > like what I've shown in the two commits in this series. Again, if it's > something that will work well as a direct function call, then it seems > like Zinc makes sense as a home for it. > > With that said, I've reached out to Herbert, and we'll of course discuss > and reach a good conclusion together. > > > Note that usage can change over time; a user that requires a > > single cipher could later need multiple, and vice versa. > > I think this depends on the design of the driver and the style it's > implemented in. For example, I could imagine something like this: > > encrypt_stuff_with_morus(obj, key); > > evolving over time to: > > if (obj->type == MORUS_TYPE) > encrypt_stuff_with_morus(obj, key); > else if (obj->type == AEGIS_TYPE) > encrypt_stuff_with_aegis(obj, key); > > On the other hand, if the developer has good reason to use the crypto > API's dynamic dispatch and async API and so forth, then perhaps it just > changes from: > > static const char *cipher_name = "morus"; > > to > > static const char *cipher_name_type_1 = "morus"; > static const char *cipher_name_type_2 = "aegis"; > > I can imagine both programming styles and evolutions being desirable for > different reasons. > > > > - It matches exactly what Andy Polyakov's code is doing for the exact > > > same reason, so this isn't something that's actually "new". (There > > > are paths inside his implementation that branch from the vector code > > > to the scalar code.) > > > > Matches Andy's code, where? The reason you had to add the radix conversion is > > because his code does *not* handle it... > > For example, check out the avx blocks function. The radix conversion > happens in a few different places throughout. The reason we need it > separately here is because, unlike userspace, it's possible the kernel > code will transition from 2^26 back to 2^64 as a result of the FPU > context changing. IOW, you had to rewrite the x86 assembly algorithm in C and make it use a different Poly1305 context format. That's a major change, where bugs can be introduced -- and at least one was introduced, in fact. I'd appreciate it if you were more accurate in describing your modifications and the potential risks involved. And yes I know why converting radixes is needed, as I had pointed it out... > > As well, AndyP seems to like the idea of including this logic in the > assembly instead of in C, if I understood our discussions correctly, so > there's a decent chance this will migrate out of the glue code and into > the assembly properly, which is probably a better place for it. > > > > - It has been discussed at length with Andy, including what kinds of > > > proofs we'll need if we want to chop it down further (to remove that > > > final reduction), and why we both don't want to do that yet, and so > > > we go with the full carrying for the avoidance of risk. > > > > Sorry, other people don't know about your private discussions. For the rest of > > us, why not add a comment to the code explaining what's going on? > > That's a good idea. I can include some discussion about this as well in > the commit message that introduces the glue code, too, I guess? I've > been hesitant to fill these commit messages up even more, given there > are already so many walls of text and whatnot, but if you think that'd > be useful, I'll do that for v7, and also add comments. Please prefer to put information in the code or documentation rather than in commit messages, when appropriate. > > > > - We've proved its correctness with Z3, actually using an even looser > > > constraint on digit size than what Andy mentioned to us, thus resulting > > > in a stronger proof result. So we're certain this isn't rubbish. > > AFAICS actually it *is* rubbish, because your C code stores the accumulator as > > 64-bit integers whereas the asm code (at least, the 32-bit version) reads it as > > 32-bit integers. That won't work correctly on big endian ARM. > > > There's no doubt about it, we've done our due-diligence here. > > Apparently not, given that it's broken on big endian ARM. > > Of course, having bugs in code which you insist was proven correct > > + fuzzed doesn't exactly inspire trust. > > What's with the snark? It's not rubbish. I'm not sure if you noticed it in > the development trees (both the WireGuard module tree and my kernel.org > integration tree for this patch), but the big endian ARM support was fixed > pretty shortly after I jumped the gun posting v6. Like, super soon after. > That, and other big endian fixes (on aarch64 as well) are already queued up > for v7. And now build.wireguard.com has more big endian running in CI. > > > The details of the correctness proofs and fuzzing you claim to have done aren't > > explained, even in the cover letter; so for now we just have to trust you on > > that point. > > "Claim to have done", "trust you on that point" -- I think there's no > reason to doubt the integrity of my "claims", and I don't appreciate the > phrasing that appears to call that into question. > > Regardless, sure, we can expand the "wall-of-text" commit messages even > further, if you want, and include the verbatim Z3 scripts for reproduction. > > > I understand that your standards are still as high or even higher than > > Herbert's, which is good; crypto code should be held to high standards! But > > based on the evidence, I do worry there's a double standard going on where you > > get away with things yourself which you won't allow from others in Zinc. It's > > just not honest, and it will make people not want to contribute to Zinc. > > Maintainers are supposed to be unbiased and hold all contributions to the same > > standard. > > This is complete and utter garbage, and I find its insinuations insulting > and ridiculous. There is absolutely no lack of honesty and no double > standard being applied whatsoever. Your attempt to cast doubt about the > quality of standards applied and the integrity of the process is wholly > inappropriate. When I tell you that high standards were applied and that > due-diligence was done in developing a particular patch, I mean what I > say. No, I was not aware of the fixed version. I found the bug myself reading the latest patchset you've mailed out, v6. It's great that you found and fixed this bug on your own, and of course that raises my level of confidence in your work. Still, the v6 patchset still includes your claim that "All implementations have been extensively tested and fuzzed"; so that claim was objectively wrong. So I disagree that my concerns are "complete and utter garbage". And I think that the fact that you prefer to respond by attacking me, rather than committing to be more accurate in your claims and to treat all contributions fairly, is problematic. Also, if you have extra tests that you're running, it would be great if you could include them as part of the submission so that others can run them too. > > > We need "Zinc" to be Linux's crypto library, not "Jason's crypto library". > > This very much is a project directed toward the benefit of the kernel in > a general sense. It's been this way from the start, and there's nothing > in its goals or plans to the contrary of that. Please leave this vague > and unproductive rhetoric aside. > Well, it doesn't help that you yourself claim that Zinc stands for "Zx2c4's INsane Cryptolib"... - Eric
