Atte André Jensen wrote:
On 2010-06-25 10:59, Joep L. Blom wrote:
This is an interesting discussion.
I agree, partly, that Bach wrote music which can be interpreted as
jazzy.
That's not really what I meant. Also I don't think it's especially
tasteful to swing Bach. I'm just saying that the basic melodic
principles of baroque and bebop is very similar. There's a lot of
differences or course, but melodically and harmonically there's a lot in
common.
However, the harmonic complexity we use nowadays was not invented then.
Hmmm. Complexity... I think I understand what you're aiming at, but (and
as I say this a a jazz pianist about my own music) jazz is for the most
parts quite simple harmonically speaking compared to classical music. A
lot of II-V and II-V-I with only a few standard secondary functions
(mostly dominant) and almost exclusively root position chords.
Yes, we use bigger chords and accept greater dissonance in the
harmonies, but that has the unfortunate effect of blurring the
functions. Like in C, the dominant triad is G (G-B-D) and the
subdominant triad is F (F-A-C), no notes in common. In jazz you would
often use the II as subdominant as 7th chord, Dm7 (D-F-A-C) and at least
a dominant 7th chord, G7 (G-B-D-F), not the two chords have two notes in
common. More realistically a pianist would voice this as Dm9 (F-A-C-E)
to G13 (F-A-B-E), now with three notes in common.
I'm also not saying that jazz is stupid, but I don't think it's fair to
consider it more complex than classical music in general.
And of cource we could start talking about the more advanced jazz (Wayne
Shorter or something), but then there's Wagner :-)
Bach's music is primarily polyphonic (listen e.g. to the Brandenburger
concerts or the Goldberg variations) using, sparingly, simple chords.
You don't have to play more notes at the same time to have a chord. Even
a single melodic line will suggest underlying harmony. Bach used lots of
b9's and stuff...
In de realm of the classical music we have Debussy to thank for modern
harmonies together with the extensive use of the 6-tone scale and other
modern musical ideas. However the use of -9, -13 and many other
combinations in chords are 20th century ideas invented by jazz-pianists,
arrangers and "classical composers" alike
...but of course (as I mentioned) I understand what you mean :-)
Debussy's harmonies (or actually "chords") are different to Bachs and
had large impact on jazz. But I still feel that "the core of jazz" has
more in common with "the core of baroque" than anything else.
The greatest difference between classical music and jazz, however, is in
my opinion simply the timing which is unbreakably related to jazz
melodies and harmonies.
Fast bebop is almost even 8ths :-)
An even more fundamental difference is the irregular phrasing and
emphasis on lifts in jazz. This is something that you won't find too
much of in classical music.
Try playing Bach with swing (the most horrible
example which springs to mind is Jacque Louisier) or Chopin or even
Debussy.
Oh no...
Nice discussion! I agree with most what you write. However, the minor
fifth chords reharmonizing even a simple melody is not found in
classical music (in sofar as I know), use for example C7+9
((E-As-Bes_Es) and only change the root-note to Ges and you have the Ges
7/9 which you can play consequently. Also the II-V-I progression (you
even find it in Gregorian songs) sounds completely different when played
with th minor fifth chord progression. And that's one of the simple
things you can do.
In jazz you also often turn chords around (I mean instead of C in basic
position you play it in first or second) and e.g. the use of a minor
D-chord in 2nd position with a B as root(minor 7 also written as B(Ø) or
B(-7-5) give you much freedom accompaniment, especially when playing solo.
But another point of equality between jazz and "classical" mosic that
the old composers were all excellent instrumentalists and improvisers
pur sang. Nowadays classical musicians cannot improvise one bar but in
19th century it was rule that everybody improvised. Well known of course
by Mozart but also Chopin and Liszt were formidable improvisers.
Excellent books on chords and progressions are of course the 2 books by
Marc Levine, Jazz Piano Theory and Jazz Theory. I try (for myself!) to
write notes (some call it a book) on chord theory as my original
profession was neuroscientist and I have done some work on the auditory
system, However, it is still a chaos of notes, some short length
chapters, etc. Hopefully one time it will fall it into something I can
understand and use in writing and arranging.
But maybe we can continue this discussion individually as we digress, I
think, a lot from the original subject.
Joep
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