On Sun, 26 Jul 2009, Ken Restivo wrote: > On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 02:24:25PM -0700, William Weston wrote: >> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009, Brent Busby wrote: >> >>> In addition to the question I posted earlier about PREEMPT_RCU, I've >>> found still other kernel config options that are not covered in most of >>> the extant howtos for setting up low latency kernels, because they are >>> recently added in the unpatched kernel. (Or at least, they're more >>> recent than most of the howtos...) >>> >>> I've been researching these options, mostly by googling (and >>> googling...and googling) the Linux Kernel Mailing List archives, and >>> also by looking at the config used by 64Studio, since it seems the >>> prevalent opinion is that they are stable as a rock. With the latter >>> approach of checking against 64Studio's config, I've had little luck >>> though, because their distro currently comes in a 2.1 "stable" version >>> that is based on Debian "etch", with a 2.6.21 kernel that predates the >>> existence of some of the config options I'm asking about; and a 3.0 >>> "beta" version that uses a newer kernel, but should also probably be >>> taken with a grain of salt, because 64Studio is still working the bugs >>> out of it, and because it seems to have options turned on that the LKML >>> archives have warned strongly against. So, most of the information I've >>> gleaned has been from the LKML. >> >> I tried out the 64Studio stable version last fall, and had a lot of troubles >> with it. The 2.6.21 based kernel wouldn't even boot on my box, so I ended up >> booting up with the 2.6.24 based -rt kernel that I was using on Fedora 8 / >> CCRMA. There were too many libraries and apps that were way too out of date >> for my tastes, so I abandoned the whole experiment. >> >>> I might as well collate these questions here, for what good it may do. >>> The kernel I'm configuring is 2.6.29.6 with matching RT patches (-rt23), >>> though all of the options listed here are actually present even in the >>> unpatched 2.6.29.6 kernel. >>> >>> >>> >>> PREEMPT_RCU : >>> >>> This was the one my original question was about in the earlier post. >>> In the newer kernels (even mainline ones, without any RT patches), there >>> is a choice of "RCU Subsystem", with one option being "classic", and >>> other being "preemptable". The choice would seem obvious for low >>> latency, except that the help text warns that a preemptible RCU is >>> likely to expose serious kernel bugs that may render the system >>> completely unstable. (This is *not* the same setting as the various >>> CONFIG_PREEMPT options that have been present in the mainline kernel for >>> awhile now. This is something new, and it appears in menuconfig as a >>> separate setting.) I think I've mostly gathered from reading through >>> the whole process of debugging that the kernel gurus went through that >>> as of last year or so, this is now considered mostly stable, after >>> having been subjected to a utility called 'rcutorture', and having fixed >>> many lockups. I'd still be interested in anything anyone else can >>> contribute about it though, especially if they're using it and they >>> also think it is stable. >> >> There was a time when PREEMPT_RCU was unstable, and most of the -rt kernel >> releases would fix one RCU bug while adding another. These times are now past, >> however. PREEMPT_RCU has been completely stable for me on AMD and Intel (both >> multicore) for about a year now. >> >>> GROUP_SCHED : >>> >>> This one is interesting, and I don't know what to make of it, other than >>> that the LKML seems to have decided in the last two months or so that it >>> slows your system down and makes latencies worse. >>> The thing that's confusing about it though is that it's >>> described as a mechanism for grouping high priority tasks by group. >>> It's implied (though not spelled out specifically) that they even mean >>> by this Posix groups, because in one document I read, it says that >>> enabling this will cause you to be unable to get realtime as a non-root >>> user unless you are setup in a group specified in limits.conf. Hmm! >>> That sounds an awful lot like what we've just been calling pam_limits >>> for years now. Are we doing this with a kernel config option now? (One >>> which apparently doesn't work?) >>> The 3.0 (beta) version of 64Studio turns this on. Then again, >>> looking at their kernel config, they seem to turn everything on, and >>> that might be why it's considered beta. (The 2.1 stable version of >>> 64Studio seems to have a kernel old enough that it never had that >>> option as a choice.) Anyone have any feedback about this? It's only in >>> the past two months that the kernel gurus have decided that it's bad, >>> but they're actually considering marking it broken from what I've read. >> >> Here's another vote for completely broken! Every time I set up a box with the >> -rt kernel, I start with the distro's .config and tweak from there. And every >> time, I can't make realtime low-latency audio a reality until I disable >> GROUP_SCHED. >> >>> CGROUPS : >>> >>> This sounds cool, but I'm reasonably sure it's not actually necessary. >>> Documentation I've read suggests that this allows for letting >>> applications (or users) define CPU and memory pool affinity for tasks, >>> so that one could arbitrarily tie down particular threads or tasks to a >>> given processor core, or region of memory (or something like that). >>> However, the thing that makes me somewhat sure I don't positively need >>> this is that the same documentation also says that if you want to use >>> it, you need to create a new subdirectory under /dev, mount a new >>> pseudofilesystem under it, and then this module will populate that space >>> with dynamic configuration data about these affinity groups for running >>> tasks. I have neither seen any distro (even ones made for musicians) >>> that has set any such thing up out of the box, nor have I ever seen a >>> realtime howto that tells people to do it themselves. It sounds like >>> there's a lot of infrastructure necessary for this that's not common in >>> distros yet. (Though I see that regular Debian "lenny" turns this on in >>> the kernel without actually providing the special /dev support for it, >>> which I presume they're thinking you'll setup yourself if you're >>> interested.) Still, comments welcome... >> >> As far as I can tell, CGROUPS doesn't affect realtime latencies enough to make >> any sort of difference for realtime audio. It does, however, mess with the >> scheduler, even without setting up the affinity groups. I've noted some >> strange scheduling behavior: When running multiple instances of the same CPU >> bound task (like burnP6, mprime, dd, or your favorite stress tester), the tasks >> usually start off fairly evenly distributed between the cores, and then the >> affinity seems to drift, lumping these tasks on one half of the cores while >> leaving the other half mostly idle. On a core2quad with CGROUPS enabled, I >> generally have to run 12 instances of burnP6 to keep utilization of all four >> cores pegged at 99-100%. I wouldn't go as far as to say that CGROUPS is >> broken, but I fail to see the usefulness on a production audio system with the >> IRQ and other realtime priorities tuned properly, especially now that the core >> scheduling features for -rt are stable. >> >>> -- >>> + Brent A. Busby + "We've all heard that a million monkeys >>> + UNIX Systems Admin + banging on a million typewriters will >>> + University of Chicago + eventually reproduce the entire works of >>> + Physical Sciences Div. + Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, >>> + James Franck Institute + we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky >> >> I've also run into a handful of config options that either help or hurt >> realtime performance, depending on the specific hardware: >> >> NO_HZ (seems to work properly on most hardware these days) > > Is that advised? I was told to use HZ_1000 in order to get MIDI > to work correctly. Should I be using NO_HZ instead? I've got > several machines to configure: a 32-bit Atom EEE, a 64-bit Intel > Micro-ITX, and a 64-bit Asus Intel Core2Duo I think this depends on where the MIDI sequencer gets it timing from. On my Intel Core2Quad, NO_HZ is enabled and MIDI works fine. I've been using MusE, BTW, which first tries to use the RTC, and then falls back to the ALSA timer. On my AMD Turion, NO_HZ worked fine with the legacy RTC driver, but MIDI timing completely fell apart with the newer RTC_DRV_CMOS, and turning NO_HZ off didn't make it any better. I know that at one point, it was advised to keep NO_HZ turned off, but it appears to work on at least some hardware now. Until I hear a definitive answer that reflects the status of the current -rt kernel tree, I'll continue to trust the trial and error method for this one. Alas, I can't test MIDI timing on MusE right now. After my upgrade to Fedora 11, MusE won't even start up now. It appears to be a futex hang during the memory pool allocation (before any new threads are initialized), and I'm still trying to determine whether the fault is in the kernel, the new glibc, or the new libstdc++. When I have some spare time, I'll get all the debugging info together for the dev list. >> PCI_MSI (some PCI devices seem to add more latency with MSI) >> RTC_DRV_CMOS (this depends on your particluar RTC hardware) >> HPET_EMULATE_RTC (this depends on your particluar HPET hardware) >> X86_ACPI_CPUFREQ (creates TSC drift between cores on Intel) >> >> And of course, there's all kinds of profiling, stats, testing, and debugging >> options that make any realtime load suffer. Occasionally, you'll find a device >> driver that's just plain bad for -rt performance, but I've been running into >> this problem a lot less these days. >> >> Equally as important for low-latency are the scheduling priorities. After a lot >> of google, lkml, and trial and error, I've settled on the following for >> rock-solid low-latency audio: >> >> 99 FF migration >> 99 FF posixcputmr >> 98 FF IRQ-8 (realtime clock) >> 97 FF audio IRQ (in some cases means ieee1394 or specific USB port) >> 80 RR JACK >> >> All audio and MIDI apps should run at a lower realtime priority than JACK. All >> other IRQ- and sirq- threads should be set to >> SCHED_OTHER. To set this up, I've added the following to my /etc/rc.local: >> >> --- >> # set all irq threads to sched_other >> for irq in `pgrep 'IRQ-'`; do >> chrt -o -p 0 $irq; >> done >> >> # set all softirq threads to sched_other >> for sirq in `pgrep 'sirq-'`; do >> chrt -o -p 0 $sirq; >> done >> >> # set high prio IRQs >> chrt -f -p 98 `pgrep IRQ-8` # rtc >> chrt -f -p 97 `pgrep IRQ-16` # hda-intel >> --- >> >> And of course, there's those pesky BIOS options. Some of the newer Intel CPU >> features like to generate interrupts that the kernel can do absolutely nothing >> about. I had to disable C1E, CPU TM function, execute disable bit, and one of >> the ACPI options (can't remember which one) to get my core2quad to work. >> Disabling video interrupts (only an issue on older hardware) always seems to >> help. AMD systems seem to require much less (if any) BIOS tweaking for -rt. >> >> Please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. Most of this knowledge >> is gained from four years of following -rt development and tuning -rt kernels >> on a variety of hardware. I'm always adding to my bag of tricks when it comes >> to tuning realtime machines ;-} >> >> >> Cheers, >> --ww >> _______________________________________________ >> Linux-audio-user mailing list >> Linux-audio-user@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user > _______________________________________________ Linux-audio-user mailing list Linux-audio-user@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user
