On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 06:20, tim hall wrote: > Last Monday 29 November 2004 23:55, Marek Peteraj was like: > > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 21:57, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote: > > > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 12:16, Marek Peteraj wrote: > > > > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 16:59, Jack O'Quin wrote: > > > > > Joe Hartley <jh@xxxxxxxxxxxx> writes: > > > > > > > I think if RME believes releasing the data on their Firewire > > > > > > > audio > > > > > > > > > > > > poses a threat to their competitive edge, they probably have a > > > > > > point. > > > > > > > > > > Right or wrong, it is their business and their choice. > > > > > > > > > > > While I'm a huge fan of OSS, I have to respect when companies like > > > > > > NVidia release binary-only drivers for a device. I'm just glad > > > > > > that they do, when so many companies will only release for Windoze, > > > > > > or for Windoze and Mac only. I think NVidia's support, for > > > > > > example, is as good for Linux as it is for any other platform. Do > > > > > > all bugs get fixed? Nope, and they don't in 99% of OSS projects, > > > > > > either. > > > > > > > > > > I believe in free speech, and this includes the right to remain > > > > > silent. Insisting that RME release code when they would rather not > > > > > violates *their* freedom. > > > > > > > > Jack, i think it rather violates the freedom of their *customers* to > > > > use the product they've purchased with the OS of their choice. > > > > > > Sorry but you are wrong, the "freedom" of users is not affected by RME's > > > decision to not release information. Users have the freedom to chose > > > what they buy. They are not forced to buy a particular card. If they buy > > > it and they did not know it was not supported under linux (either > > > because they did not do the required homework before buying, or they did > > > the homework and still the card does not work) they should return it and > > > buy something else. > > Exactly, consumer choice here is not to continue being their customer. Very > frustrating, but that's the choice we get. A bit like not voting Republican > next time, I find it more interesting to think closer to apples and oranges > on this one. > > I've been a vegetarian most of my adult life, Me too. > so I'll compare proprietary > software to meat for the purposes of this analogy. If anyone wants to flame > me for this, I'll have mine chargrilled. Food is an interesting analogy as > for years manufacturers have had to print their specs (i.e. ingredients) on > the wrapper, not the whole recipe, just the ingredients Not the ALSA driver, just the specs. To me. > Over twenty years this basic policy, started by a small bunch of nutters, has > resulted in much tighter legislation about what food companies have to > disclose about their products, meat-free products can now be found in > high-street shops instead of just specialist stores and people now accept > that being vegetarian is a healthy thing (more or less). In all this time, I > haven't once insisted that you stop eating meat or send letters to food > producers insisting that they comply with vegetarian principles, much as I > think that would be a good idea. Lots of people do that. I've seen many food products having a 'suitable for vegetarians' sticker on them. Besides, if it's a market that, even though seems to be small, is very likely to grow, i'd definitely invest. It's a continuous process of looking for new business opportunities. But let's look at it from the card manufacturers perspective. He wasn't involved in the community for several years, doesn't know its evolution, nuances etc. He takes a look here, sees a few people saying "we're just 10 people here, guys let's give up anyway, it's not worth it". Consequences are worse because there's little action going on. Perhaps i'd be nice to start a petition of all rme and maudio users. But we'd need to widely promote such activity so that we can reach almost every rme or maudio / linux audiop user in the world. > I'm quite happy munching through my bar of > Green&Black's chocolate, they don't release their recipe ALSA driver. > either, so I can't > make my own or send it to you; are they violating my consumer rights? > They're giving me yet another reason Specs. > not to buy Hershey's. Digidesign. > Mmm consumer > choice, tastes good. Yeah. :) > > > What if there's nothing else you can buy? Which very much seems to be > > the situation with linux audio (expect egosys) in the next 2 years or so > > when all already supported cards will be discontinued. The future seems > > to be firewire. Presonus, mackie, apogee, maudio, echo, TC, edirol, > > digidesign, motu, terratec, metric halo, egosys, tascam, > > ......................... ;) > > Give up chocolate. Give up linux audio? I really hope i won't be forced to do that. > > On the hardware front, personally I just wish they'd give them away free, > specs and all, then I could afford one too. And in approximately ten years, > they will. The situation is different. They did, the can do that now. > > > Now let's *guess* who of those companies will provide specs. ;) > > > > Seems like not even M-Audio will, according to Pieters information. RME, > > long time specs provider, said clear NO. > > > > Guys, please, don't be naive(no offense intended of course), we're > > pretty much f*cked if we don't do somehting about it. Let's not act like > > a sleeping beauty dreaming of hw manufacturer's openness "one day". > > That's another way of saying 'be very afraid'. No thanks, it hasn't worked so > far. I think it's naive to attack any company from a position of > powerlessness and think it will change anything. We are powerless if we think that we are. > We need to build on our > successes, we need allies, we need good PR and we need to encourage > manufacturers to be open with us. You can harrass companies when they break > the law or some guidelines that they signed up to in the first place. > > > > If the user wants __that__ card and nothing else will do, then politely > > > (yes, being polite will get you further than being rude) > > > > The worst nightmare for every company is unsatisfied customer, the more > > the better chance to achieve *something*. > > Rudeness puts people on the defensive and makes them close ranks. It's a > natural response. Never if it comes to corporations. They either: 1. ignore you if their position is strong enough(sometimes even if they have no such position, but there are successful and unsuccessful companies) 2. accept your requirements > > is just > > boosting their egos so that they can show you their finger next time you > > need something. It happens always. > To you? always? Hmm. I'd be glad to learn it's the opposite. A few exceptions just prove that rule. Marek
