On Sun, 5 Apr 2015, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 02:24:57PM -0700, Len Ovens wrote:
Fader mapping in general has been tied to the phyisical fader and
it's length. 4in/100mm seems to be the max real estate people want
to use. Ok so far. The mapping is set up to use that 4in in the best
way possible, but seems to be the same no matter what the use. There
are three main uses I can see:
Broadcast - Fades to oo(off) happen often
Live Mix - Fades might happen once in a performance (maybe 2 or 3)
recording - Fades are more often done with some kind of automation
maybe never on a physical fader... or maybe only
on bus faders.
For the latter practice will vary, depending on the user and the type
of material. Speaking just for myself, I never use automation in Ardour.
When necessary, levels are edited using the region gain - this keeps
the faders free for manual adjustment. IMHO, automation with anything
but a real physical and motorised fader is a kludge.
Ok, That is good to know. The reason I assumed automation is the number of
channels involved... I only have 10 fingers. So I would then have to
assume fades done manually would be done on groups or busses with maybe
the odd channel included. The last time I included a fade with a fairly
hot guitar part I found it sounded best with that part faded much faster
than the rest. In other words I faded most things at the same rate except
one channel. Does this experience align with general practice?
Assuming a recording/mixdown situation, would it make sense on a
limitless fader to continue at the same db drop per movement from
+6(or 10 or whatever) to -110?
I'd say no. If you need static fader gains below -40 dB or so that
probably means something else is wrong.
better to fix the input gain then. And even a limitless fader should be
able to fade to oo in one movement.
something loud that is really background may end up with it's fader
position quite low. This would mean minor adjustment to that track
would be difficult.
This is why I'm really missing an input gain trim in Ardour. Even more
so because the faders go up to only +6dB, this should be at least +10
or even +15 dB.
There are LADSPA/LV2 gain plugins available and of course the AI itself
generally has gain as well. Having said that, I have been looking at a
number of digital mixers from various manufactures (anyone who has been
open about remote control) and all of them include a gain in the input
strip. This gain or preamp control follows the actual HW. It is not
generic, it changes depending where the preamp is. For example the preamp
may be local or at the end of a snake or the input from the computer or a
local onboard recorder. In the last two cases the control is a trim, in
the first two it has full preamp controls. With the first two full preamp
controls show up (phantompwr, phase (the computer return may have phase
too) in the case I am looking at the local pre has no pad but the remote
one does and both have different gain ranges. All of this info shows up on
the mixer. (I am looking at a Allen & Heath in this case, but Yamaha,
Soundcraft and others are similar)
Doing this in Ardour (or any DAW) would be non-trivial. Maybe not possible
in many cases (AIs with physical gain). Knowing with any certainty which
ALSA input is mapped to a jack port is already not easy.
Just adding a trim control on every input may not be the "right" thing to
do either as it might tend to make the user forget about the AI gain
control.
On analog mixers the input gain trim is required in order to have a
controlled level in the pre-fader chain which may include all sorts
of inserts and/or sends. This is still so in a DAW using floating
point signals.
In my case I use Mudita24, and yes I do find I need to change levels for
each new input, sometimes just from one vocalist to another on the
mic/pre line. In my case I also have physical preamp gains as well. So two
controls for level before jack sees the signal. This is not that different
from an analog studio where different mics might use a dedicated rackmount
pre. Many LV2 plugins have in/output levels for trim purposes.
is at -20 and this was done, -20 would now be at the 0db possition.
IMHO that could be very confusing. It sort invites you to control
gain only at that single point. You could easily end up with an
absurd gain structure, and without any visual indication of that
situation.
Putting in a LED strip would solve this... but why? Better to use the
fader knob that is already there. OK.
Or if using a mouse wheel, the same amount of wheel clicks would
move the same db at any place on the fader... or a new type of fader
might make this possible too.
That would certainly be possible. There is no reason at all why fader
resolution should be limited by screen pixels.
The screen would still be the reference that indicated general level. SO
using a scroll wheel would require some indication of where the level was
overall.
If you use 'real' faders you don't have to look at them. And not
having them all at 0dB actually helps to find the one you need
quickly - you know the 'skyline', even if only subconsciously.
I did think of that after I posted...
Another solution might be to use a modifier key to make the fader
set a channel trim.
That would make sense, faders can already be remapped to aux sends
etc. on many mixers.
In my case I am thinking how "smart" the control surface should be. SHould
it be able to control more than one program so that it can directly
control AI levels for example. Or assign some level controls to a drum box
or other sequencer. Does it make sense to use an application to filter and
reasign controls from a group of control surfaces to a group of programs.
Application authors, even in Linux projects, seem to be headed more and
more to the single application does it all anyway.
Anyway, Thank you very much for your comments. They are helpful as I
re-educate myself. I was trained and worked in the technical end of
broadcast late 70s to 84 when I went to work in industrial servicing. I am
relearning a lot of things, some is new, but a lot is just through disuse.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
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