On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 09:17:18AM +0800, Boqun Feng wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 10:40:39AM +0100, Will Deacon wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 10:31:38AM +0200, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> [snip]
> > >
> > > So lots of little confusions added up to complete fail :-{
> > >
> > > Mostly I think it was the UNLOCK x + LOCK x are fully ordered (where I
> > > forgot: but not against uninvolved CPUs) and RELEASE/ACQUIRE are
> > > transitive (where I forgot: RELEASE/ACQUIRE _chains_ are transitive, but
> > > again not against uninvolved CPUs).
> > >
> > > Which leads me to think I would like to suggest alternative rules for
> > > RELEASE/ACQUIRE (to replace those Will suggested; as I think those are
> > > partly responsible for my confusion).
> >
> > Yeah, sorry. I originally used the phrase "fully ordered" but changed it
> > to "full barrier", which has stronger transitivity (newly understood
> > definition) requirements that I didn't intend.
> >
> > RELEASE -> ACQUIRE should be used for message passing between two CPUs
> > and not have ordering effects on other observers unless they're part of
> > the RELEASE -> ACQUIRE chain.
> >
> > > - RELEASE -> ACQUIRE is fully ordered (but not a full barrier) when
> > > they operate on the same variable and the ACQUIRE reads from the
> > > RELEASE. Notable, RELEASE/ACQUIRE are RCpc and lack transitivity.
> >
> > Are we explicit about the difference between "fully ordered" and "full
> > barrier" somewhere else, because this looks like it will confuse people.
> >
>
> This is confusing me right now. ;-)
>
> Let's use a simple example for only one primitive, as I understand it,
> if we say a primitive A is "fully ordered", we actually mean:
>
> 1. The memory operations preceding(in program order) A can't be
> reordered after the memory operations following(in PO) A.
>
> and
>
> 2. The memory operation(s) in A can't be reordered before the
> memory operations preceding(in PO) A and after the memory
> operations following(in PO) A.
>
> If we say A is a "full barrier", we actually means:
>
> 1. The memory operations preceding(in program order) A can't be
> reordered after the memory operations following(in PO) A.
>
> and
>
> 2. The memory ordering guarantee in #1 is visible globally.
>
> Is that correct? Or "full barrier" is more strong than I understand,
> i.e. there is a third property of "full barrier":
>
> 3. The memory operation(s) in A can't be reordered before the
> memory operations preceding(in PO) A and after the memory
> operations following(in PO) A.
>
> IOW, is "full barrier" a more strong version of "fully ordered" or not?
There is also the question of whether the barrier forces ordering
of unrelated stores, everything initially zero and all accesses
READ_ONCE() or WRITE_ONCE():
P0 P1 P2 P3
X = 1; Y = 1; r1 = X; r3 = Y;
some_barrier(); some_barrier();
r2 = Y; r4 = X;
P2's and P3's ordering could be globally visible without requiring
P0's and P1's independent stores to be ordered, for example, if you
used smp_rmb() for some_barrier(). In contrast, if we used smp_mb()
for barrier, everyone would agree on the order of P0's and P0's stores.
There are actually a fair number of different combinations of
aspects of memory ordering. We will need to choose wisely. ;-)
My hope is that the store-ordering gets folded into the globally
visible transitive level. Especially given that I have not (yet)
seen any algorithms used in production that relied on the ordering of
independent stores.
Thanx, Paul
> Regards,
> Boqun
>
> > > - RELEASE -> ACQUIRE can be upgraded to a full barrier (including
> > > transitivity) using smp_mb__release_acquire(), either before RELEASE
> > > or after ACQUIRE (but consistently [*]).
> >
> > Hmm, but we don't actually need this for RELEASE -> ACQUIRE, afaict. This
> > is just needed for UNLOCK -> LOCK, and is exactly what RCU is currently
> > using (for PPC only).
> >
> > Stepping back a second, I believe that there are three cases:
> >
> >
> > RELEASE X -> ACQUIRE Y (same CPU)
> > * Needs a barrier on TSO architectures for full ordering
> >
> > UNLOCK X -> LOCK Y (same CPU)
> > * Needs a barrier on PPC for full ordering
> >
> > RELEASE X -> ACQUIRE X (different CPUs)
> > UNLOCK X -> ACQUIRE X (different CPUs)
> > * Fully ordered everywhere...
> > * ... but needs a barrier on PPC to become a full barrier
> >
> >
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