On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 09:30:46AM +0100, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > Hello Thomas, > > Thanks for the follow up! > > Some open questions below are marked with the string ###. A couple of comments from me below, although I suspect you have this much covered already. > > On 08/19/2015 04:17 PM, Thomas Gleixner wrote: > > On Sat, 8 Aug 2015, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > >>>> FUTEX_CMP_REQUEUE (since Linux 2.6.7) > >>>> This operation first checks whether the location uaddr > >>>> still contains the value val3. If not, the operation > >>>> fails with the error EAGAIN. Otherwise, the operation > >>>> wakes up a maximum of val waiters that are waiting on the > >>>> futex at uaddr. If there are more than val waiters, then > >>>> the remaining waiters are removed from the wait queue of > >>>> the source futex at uaddr and added to the wait queue of > >>>> the target futex at uaddr2. The val2 argument specifies > >>>> an upper limit on the number of waiters that are requeued > >>>> to the futex at uaddr2. > >>>> > >>>> .\" FIXME(Torvald) Is the following correct? Or is just the decision > >>>> .\" which threads to wake or requeue part of the atomic operation? > >>>> > >>>> The load from uaddr is an atomic memory access (i.e., > >>>> using atomic machine instructions of the respective archi‐ > >>>> tecture). This load, the comparison with val3, and the > >>>> requeueing of any waiters are performed atomically and > >>>> totally ordered with respect to other operations on the > >>>> same futex word. > >>> > >>> It's atomic as the other atomic operations on the futex word. It's > >>> always performed with the proper lock(s) held in the kernel. That > >>> means any concurrent operation will serialize on that lock(s). User > >>> space has to make sure, that depending on the observed value no > >>> concurrent operations happen, but that's something the kernel cannot > >>> control. > >> > >> ??? > >> Sorry, I'm not clear here. Is the current text correct then? Or is some > >> change needed. > > > > I think we need some change here because the meaning of atomic is > > unclear. The basic rules of futexes are: > > > > - All modifying operations on the futex value have to be done with > > atomic instructions, usually cmpxchg. That applies to both kernel > > and user space. > > > > That's the atomicity at the futex value level. > > > > - In the kernel we have to create/modify/destroy state in order to > > provide the blocking/requeueing etc. > > > > This state needs protection as well. So all operations related to > > the kernel internal state are serialized on the hash bucket > > locks. The hash buckets are a scalability mechanism to avoid > > contention on a single lock protecting all kernel internal > > state. For simplicity reasons you can just think of a global lock > > protecting all kernel internal state. > > > > If the kernel creates/modifies state then it can be necessary to > > either reread the futex value or modify it. That happens under the > > locks as well. > > > > So in the case of requeue, we take the proper locks and perform the > > comparison with val3 and the requeueing with the locks held. > > > > So that lock protection makes these operations 'atomic'. The > > correct expression is 'serialized'. > > ### > So, here, i think I need some specific pointers on the precise text > changes that are required. Let's talk about this f2f. For convenience, > here's the relevant text once again quoted: Not speaking for tglx, but I think the point here is to distinguish between atomic (as in cmpxchg comparison tests performed on the futex word) and serialized (as in the management of futex hashbuckets and task states). > > FUTEX_CMP_REQUEUE (since Linux 2.6.7) > This operation first checks whether the location uaddr > still contains the value val3. If not, the operation > fails with the error EAGAIN. Otherwise, the operation Here you might explain the _CMP_ qualifier and note atomicity of the operation: The _CMP_ refers to the verification of the userspace state as specified by through the arguments. This operation first atomically compares the value at uaddr with the value val3 ... > wakes up a maximum of val waiters that are waiting on the > futex at uaddr. If there are more than val waiters, then > the remaining waiters are removed from the wait queue of > the source futex at uaddr and added to the wait queue of > the target futex at uaddr2. The val2 argument specifies > an upper limit on the number of waiters that are requeued > to the futex at uaddr2. And here, perhaps: These operations are serialized on locks protecting the internal datastructures storing the kernel futex state. I believe this paragraph is sufficient, but I'll comment on the second paragraph below: > > The load from uaddr is an atomic memory access (i.e., > using atomic machine instructions of the respective archi‐ > tecture). This load, the comparison with val3, We are "atomic" up to here. ^ And what follows below is serialized by the hash bucket locks.: > and the > requeueing of any waiters are performed atomically and > totally ordered with respect to other operations on the > same futex word. I personally think this is too much implementation detail for the man page, especially for FUTEX_CMP_REQUEUE which does not manipulate the futex word value from kernel space (We're not discussing PI here). The first paragraph is sufficient to fully describe the guaranteed behavior of the opcode. > > > >>>> .\" FIXME We need some explanation in the following paragraph of *why* > >>>> .\" it is important to note that "the kernel will update the > >>>> .\" futex word's value prior > >>>> It is important to note to returning to user space" . Can someone > >>>> explain? that the kernel will update the futex word's value > >>>> prior to returning to user space. Unlike the other futex opera‐ > >>>> tions described above, the PI futex operations are designed for > >>>> the implementation of very specific IPC mechanisms. > >>> > >>> If there are multiple waiters on a pi futex then a wake pi operation > >>> will wake the first waiter and hand over the lock to this waiter. This > >>> includes handing over the rtmutex which represents the futex in the > >>> kernel. The strict requirement is that the futex owner and the rtmutex > >>> owner must be the same, except for the update period which is > >>> serialized by the futex internal locking. That means the kernel must > >>> update the user space value prior to returning to user space. > > > > And as noted above: It must update while holding the proper locks. > > (Okay.) > > > >>>> .\" FIXME XXX In discussing errors for FUTEX_CMP_REQUEUE_PI, Darren Hart > >>>> .\" made the observation that "EINVAL is returned if the non-pi > >>>> .\" to pi or op pairing semantics are violated." > >>>> .\" Probably there needs to be a general statement about this > >>>> .\" requirement, probably located at about this point in the page. > >>>> .\" Darren (or someone else), care to take a shot at this? > >>> > >>> Well, that's hard to describe because the kernel only has a limited > >>> way of detecting such mismatches. It only can detect it when there are > >>> non PI waiters on a futex and a PI function is called or vice versa. > >> > >> Hmmm. Okay, I filed your comments away for reference, but > >> hopefully someone can help with some actual text. > > > > I let Darren come up with something sensible :) > > Okay, let's see if Darren has something to say. > > >>>> .\" FIXME Somewhere on this page (I guess under the discussion of PI > >>>> .\" futexes) we need a discussion of the FUTEX_OWNER_DIED bit. > >>>> .\" Can someone propose a text? > >>> > >>> If a futex has a rtmutex associated in the kernel, i.e. when there are > >>> blocked waiters, and the owner of the futex/rtmutex dies unexpectedly, > >>> then the kernel cleans up the rtmutex (as it holds a reference to the > >>> dying task) and hands it over to the next waiter. That requires that > >>> the user space value is updated accordingly. The kernel sets the > >>> FUTEX_OWNER_DIED in the user space value along with the TID of the new > >>> owner. User space is responsible for cleaning this up, though there > >>> are cases where the kernel does the cleanup. > >>> > >>> The FUTEX_OWNER_DIED bit can also be set on uncontended futexes, where > >>> the kernel has no state associated. This happens via the robust futex > >>> mechanism. In that case the futex value will be set to > >>> FUTEX_OWNER_DIED. The robust futex mechanism is also available for non > >>> PI futexes. > >> > >> ??? > >> So, I added part of that text to the page, as follows: > >> > >> If a futex has an associated RT-mutex in the kernel (i.e., there > >> are blocked waiters) and the owner of the futex/RT-mutex dies > >> unexpectedly, then the kernel cleans up the RT-mutex and hands it > >> over to the next waiter. This in turn requires that the user- > >> space value is updated accordingly. To indicate that this is > >> required, the kernel sets the FUTEX_OWNER_DIED bit in the futex > >> word along with the thread ID of the new owner. User space is > >> then responsible for cleaning this up (though there are cases > >> where the kernel does the cleanup). > >> > >> Okay? > >> > >> I think the last sentence still requires a little work though. What does > >> user space need to do in terms of clean up? > > > > User space has usually state as well. So the FUTEX_OWNER_DIED bit > > tells userspace that it needs to cleanup the stale state left over by > > the dead owner. > > ### > So I changed the last sentence to > > User space is then responsible for cleaning up the stale state left > over by the dead owner. > > Okay? We can't say much beyond it's userspace's problem now because how it's handled will vary widely. It might be worth mentioning that userspace can use FUTEX_OWNER_DIED to detect this state and handle it appropriately. > > >>>> .\" FIXME In the next line, what type of "priority" are we talking about? > >>>> .\" Realtime priorities for SCHED_FIFO and SCHED_RR? > >>>> .\" Or something else? > >>>> > >>>> The > >>>> enqueueing of the waiter is in descending priority order > >>>> if more than one waiter exists. > >>> > >>> That also covers sched deadline. > >> > >> ??? > >> Thanks. If the realm is restricted purely to SCHED_OTHER (SCHED_NORMAL) > >> processes, does the nice value come into play also? > > > > No. SCHED_OTHER/NORMAL tasks are handled in FIFO order. > > Okay. Thanks. > > >> So by now, I've reworked this text to be: > >> > >> FUTEX_TRYLOCK_PI (since Linux 2.6.18) > >> This operation tries to acquire the futex at uaddr. It is > >> invoked when a user-space atomic acquire did not succeed > >> because the futex word was not 0. > >> > >> The trylock in kernel might succeed because the futex word > >> contains stale state (FUTEX_WAITERS and/or > >> FUTEX_OWNER_DIED). This can happen when the owner of the > >> futex died. User space cannot handle this condition in a > >> race-free manner > >> > >> Okay? > >> > >> I must admit that I find "the trylock in kernel might succeed"hard > >> to understand. Could you elaborate a little? > > > > If the user space value has stale state, then the kernel can fix that > > up and acquire the futex. > > > Okay, so I made the last sentence: > > User space cannot handle this condition in a race-free manner, > but the kernel can fix this up and acquire the futex. > > Okay? > > However, I realize I should have said more clearly why I find the text > hard to understand. As I read this text: > > The trylock in kernel might succeed because the futex word > contains stale state FUTEX_WAITERS and/or FUTEX_OWNER_DIED). > > ### > > The words "The trylock in kernel might succeed" makes it feel > like a contrast is being drawn with some other scenario, but > it's not clear what that alternative/contrast is. Do you see > what I mean? Let's talk about this f2f. I presume you got this covered in Dublin: The trylock in the kernel has more state, so it can independently verify the flags that userspace must trust implicitly. > > >> ??? > >> So now I've reworded the opening text describing FUTEX_WAIT_REQUEUE_PI > >> as follows: > >> > >> FUTEX_WAIT_REQUEUE_PI (since Linux 2.6.31) > >> Wait on a non-PI futex at uaddr and potentially be > >> requeued (via a FUTEX_CMP_REQUEUE_PI operation in another > >> task) onto a PI futex at uaddr2. The wait operation on > >> uaddr is the same as for FUTEX_WAIT. > >> > >> The waiter can be removed from the wait on uaddr without > >> requeueing on uaddr2 via a FUTEX_WAIT operation in another > > > > s/FUTEX_WAIT/FUTEX_WAKE/ > > Thanks. Fixed. > > >> task. In this case, the FUTEX_WAIT_REQUEUE_PI operation > >> returns with the error EWOULDBLOCK. > >> > >> Okay? > > > > Yes. > > Thanks. > > Cheers, > > Michael > > > > -- > Michael Kerrisk > Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ > Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/ > -- Darren Hart Intel Open Source Technology Center -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-api" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
