On 07/02/2018 08:16 AM, Bjorn Helgaas wrote: > On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 11:39:00PM -0500, Alex G wrote: >> On 06/30/2018 04:31 PM, Bjorn Helgaas wrote: >>> [+cc Borislav, linux-acpi, since this involves APEI/HEST] >> >> Borislav is not the relevant maintainer here, since we're not contingent on >> APEI handling. I think Keith has a lot more experience with this part of the >> kernel. > > Thanks for adding Keith. > >>> On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 02:58:20PM -0500, Alexandru Gagniuc wrote: >>>> According to the documentation, "pcie_ports=native", linux should use >>>> native AER and DPC services. While that is true for the _OSC method >>>> parsing, this is not the only place that is checked. Should the HEST >>>> table list PCIe ports as firmware-first, linux will not use native >>>> services. >>> >>> Nothing in ACPI-land looks at pcie_ports_native. How should ACPI >>> things work in the "pcie_ports=native" case? I guess we still have to >>> expect to receive error records from the firmware, because it may >>> certainly send us non-PCI errors (machine checks, etc) and maybe even >>> some PCI errors (even if the Linux AER driver claims AER interrupts, >>> we don't know what notification mechanisms the firmware may be using). >> >> I think ACPI land shouldn't care about this. We care about it from the PCIe >> stand point at the interface with ACPI. FW might see a delta in the sense >> that we request control of some features via _OSC, which we otherwise would >> not do without pcie_ports=native. >> >>> I guess best-case, we'll get ACPI error records for all non-PCI >>> things, and the Linux AER driver will see all the AER errors. >> >> It might affect FW's ability to catch errors, but that's dependent on the >> root port implementation. >> >>> Worst-case, I don't really know what to expect. Duplicate reporting >>> of AER errors via firmware and Linux AER driver? Some kind of >>> confusion about who acknowledges and clears them? >> >> Once user enters pcie_ports=native, all bets are off: you broke the contract >> you have with the FW -- whether or not you have this patch. >> >>> Out of curiosity, what is your use case for "pcie_ports=native"? >>> Presumably there's something that works better when using it, and >>> things work even *better* with this patch? >> >> Corectness. It bothers me that actual behavior does not match the >> documentation: >> >> native Use native PCIe services associated with PCIe ports >> unconditionally. >> >> >>> I know people do use it, because I often see it mentioned in forums >>> and bug reports, but I really don't expect it to work very well >>> because we're ignoring the usage model the firmware is designed >>> around. My unproven suspicion is that most uses are in the black >>> magic category of "there's a bug here, and we don't know how to fix >>> it, but pcie_ports=native makes it work better". >> >> There exist cases that firmware didn't consider. I would not call them >> "firmware bugs", but there are cases where the user understands the platform >> better than firmware. >> Example: on certain PCIe switches, a hardware PCIe error may bring the >> switch downstream ports into a state where they stop notifying hotplug >> events. Depending on the platform, firmware may or may not fix this >> condition, but "pcie_ports=native" enables DPC. DPC contains the error >> without the switch downstream port entering the weird error state in the >> first place. >> >> All bets are off at this point. > > If a user needs "pcie_ports=native", I claim that's a user experience > problem, and the underlying cause is a hardware, firmware, or OS > defect. > > I have no doubt the situation you describe is real, but this doesn't > make any progress toward resolving the user experience problem. In > fact, it propagates the folklore that using "pcie_ports=native" is an > appropriate final solution. It's fine as a temporary workaround while > we figure out a better solution, but we need some mechanism for > analyzing the problem and eventually removing the need to use > "pcie_ports=native". Speaking of user experience, I'd argue that it's a horrible experience for the kernel to _not_ do what it is asked. I'm going to go fix the little comment about the patch. I had the same dilemma when I wrote it, but didn't find it too noteworthy. It makes more sense now that you mentioned it. Alex > I have a minor comment on the patch, but I think it makes sense. This > might be a good time to resurrect Prarit's "taint-on-pci-parameters" > patch. If somebody uses "pcie_ports=native", I think it makes sense > to taint the kernel both because (1) we broke the contract with the > firmware and we don't really know what to expect, and (2) it's an > opportunity to encourage the user to raise a bug report. > > Bjorn > -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-acpi" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
