On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 12:37:22AM +0000, Al Stone wrote: > On 12/16/2014 08:48 AM, Mark Rutland wrote: > >>> 4. Set clear expectations for those providing ACPI for use with Linux > >>> * Problem: > >>> * Hardware/Firmware vendors can and will create ACPI tables that > >>> cannot be used by Linux without some guidance > >>> * Kernel developers cannot determine whether the kernel or firmware > >>> is broken without knowing what the firmware should do > >>> * Solution: document the expectations, and iterate as needed. > >>> Enforce when we must. > >>> * Status: initial kernel text available; AMD has offered to make > >>> their guidance document generic; firmware summit planned for > >>> deeper discussions. > >> > >> After seeing the AMD patches, I would add to this point that we need to > >> find a way to come up with shared bindings for common hardware such as > >> the ARM pl011/pl022/pl061/pl330 IP blocks or the designware > >> i2c/spi/usb3/ahci blocks. > >> > >> What I remember from this item on your list is actually a different > >> problem: We need to define more clearly what kinds of machines we > >> would expect ACPI support for and which machines we would not. > >> > >> Fine-grained clock support is one such example: if anybody needs > >> to expose that through a clock driver in the kernel, we need to be > >> very clear that we will not support that kind of machine through > >> ACPI, so we don't get developers building BIOS images that will > >> never be supported. Other examples would be non-compliant PCI > >> hosts or machines that are not covered by SBSA. > > > > [...] > > > >>> 6. How does the kernel handle_DSD usage? > >>> * Problem: > >>> * _DSD defines key-value properties in the DT style. How do we > >>> ensure _DSD bindings are well defined? > >>> * How do we ensure DT and _DSD bindings remain consistent with > >>> each other? > >>> * Solution: public documentation for all bindings, and a process > >>> for defining them > >>> * Status: proposal to require patch authors to point at public > >>> binding documentation; kernel Documentation/devicetree/bindings > >>> remains the default if no other location exists; UEFI forum has > >>> set up a binding repository. > >> > >> I think we also need to make a decision here on whether we want to use > >> PRP0001 devices on ARM64 servers, and to what degree. I would prefer > >> if we could either make them required for any devices that already have > >> a DT binding and that are not part of the official ACPI spec, or we > >> decide to not use them at all and make any PRP0001 usage a testcase > >> failure. > > > > I am rather concerned about the relationship between items described > > with _DSD and ACPI's existing device model. Describing the relationship > > between devices and their input clocks, regulators, and so on defeats > > much of the benefit ACPI is marketed as providing w.r.t. abstraction of > > the underlying platform (and as Arnd mentioned above, that's not the > > kind of platform we want to support with ACPI). > > My belief is that all those things should be set up into a known good > state by UEFI on initial boot. If they need to change, say as the > result of going into a deeper sleep state or something, that's what > the ACPI power management objects are for; Linux would execute one of > the ACPI methods already defined by the spec to control transition to > the desired state, and that method would have within it the ability > to change whatever clocks or regulators it deems necessary. The > kernel should not have to track these things. > > If someone is describing all those relationships in _DSD, I agree that > is not the kind of ARM platform I think we want to deal with. This is > touched on, iirc, in arm-acpi.txt, but apparently too briefly. I think we're personally in agreement on the matter. but I'm not sure that's true of all involved parties, nor that they are necessarily aware of these issues. Some parties only seem to be considering what's documented at the ACPI spec level, rather than what's documented in Linux. At that level, these issues are not touched upon. > > I have not seen good guidelines on the usage of _DSD in that respect, > > and I'm worried we'll end up with clock controllers half-owned by AML > > and half-owned by the kernel's clock framework, and this separation > > varying from board to board (and FW revision to FW revision). I think > > that needs to be clarified at the ACPI spec level in addition to > > anything we have in the kernel documentation. > > Hrm. The spec (section 6.2.5) basically says that there exists a > thing called _DSD and that when invoked, it returns a UUID followed > by a data structure. A separate document (on http://www.uefi.org/acpi) > for each UUID defines the data structure it corresponds to. The only > one defined so far is for device properties: > > > http://www.uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/_DSD-implementation-guide-toplevel.htm > > I think you are suggesting good guidelines for both, yes? The usage > of new UUIDs and data structures, along with the usage of device > properties for the UUID we have, right? Yes, along with how _DSD interacts with the ACPI device model. In the document linked from the document you linked, I spot that GPIOs are described with something along the lines of the DT GPIO bindings (though using ACPI's own references rather than phandles) and for reasons I've described previously and below w.r.t. conflation of DT and _DSD, I'm not a fan. I'm not keen on all the linux-specific DT properties being blindly copied into _DSD without consideration of their semantics in the context of the rest of the device description, nor whether they will be usable by anything other than Linux. I note that the example in the document also inconsistently uses "linux,retain-state-suspended" and "retain-state-suspended", which does not fill me with confidence. > I've been trying to write such a thing but all I've accomplished so > far is throwing away a couple of drafts that got ugly. I'll keep at > it, though. > > > I'm still of the opinion that conflating _DSD and DT is a bad idea. > > Could you explain your usage of "conflating" here? I think I understand > what you mean, but I'd rather be sure. I believe that the idea that any DT binding should be a _DSD binding with common low-level accessors is flawed, as I've mentioned a few times in the past. I think the two should be treated separately, and that commonalities should be handled at a higher level. While this does mean more code, I believe it's more manageable and results in a far smaller chance of accidentally exposing items as describable in _DSD. We made mistakes in the way we bound DT to the driver model and exposed certain items unintentionally, and binding _DSD to DT makes the problem worse because now we have three not-quite-related sources of information masquerading as the same thing, with code authors likely only considering a single of these. Thanks, Mark. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-acpi" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
