On Sat, Mar 1, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Antheas Kapenekakis wrote: > On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 at 17:04, Mario Limonciello <superm1@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 3/1/25 08:06, Antheas Kapenekakis wrote: >> > On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 at 14:52, Mario Limonciello <superm1@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> >> >>>>> Let me know what you think! >> >>>> >> >>>> I don't really like that profiles can get out of sync, this is asking >> >>>> for a non-deterministic behavior that can be difficult to diagnose >> >>>> issues and also difficult for userspace to work with. >> >>> >> >>> I agree with Mario here. Imagine two drivers, one with low-power and >> >>> one with quiet. They both begin at performance. >> >>> >> >>> Then, userspace software gets confused (incl. ppd) and sets firmware >> >>> profile to low-power. The latter gets left in performance, causing >> >>> excess drain. >> >>> >> >>> I do not believe the legacy interface should be deprecated. Right now, >> >>> amd-pmf is a NOOP in most devices >> >> >> >> "Most" devices is not accurate. There are a lot of devices that it does >> >> enable. In the gaming space right now it's often behaving as a no-op. >> > >> > That would be a fair description. Can you give some examples of >> > devices that use the interface? Devices with and without vendor >> > software. >> >> Off hand the Framework 13 and 16 AMD both use PMF exclusively. So do a >> bunch of HP commercial laptops. > > I will ask Kyle to check it out. > >> Mark can keep me honest, but I want to say the Strix Thinkpad laptops >> have both PMF and vendor interface (thinkpad-acpi). > > Hm, yeah that would be interesting to hear about > Yep, support both. >> >> >> >> "Power mode" is a concept, it doesn't just apply to configuring sPPT and >> >> fPPT. I envisage that a vendor that actively uses PMF and their own >> >> interface would be changing different things by the different interfaces. >> >> >> >> For "example" PMF may reconfigure sPPT, fPPT, STT and STAPM but their >> >> driver may notify their EC to change a fan curve. >> > >> > No. If PMF changes these values it also needs to change the fan curve >> > itself via the BIOS notification. Doing otherwise would lead to >> > situations where users do not install the vendor driver and cook their >> > device. >> >> Fan curves are just that; curves. They just control how quickly fans >> ramp up not whether or not they "work". > > The APU reaches a similar temperature (Tctl) across a wide TDP range, > so temperature cannot be used on its own to determine fan speed. > Manufacturers that provide different fan curves depending on the TDP > mode usually cap the maximum fan speed on low TDPs. So you can get > funny situations where the device is set to 30W, but the fan runs as > if its using 10W leading to thermal soaking. So it is very important > for those to be inline. > >> But in any case; that's a firmware issue not a platform profile design >> issue. > > It would be a hypothetical scenario. I do not expect such a device to exist. > >> > So I expect that when PMF controls things it controls >> > everything. I would expect if vendors fallback to the pmf firmware >> > notifications while also providing vendor software there would be some >> > synergy between them, such as changing which fan preset is selected by >> > the PMF interface. >> > >> >> I can't control what vendors do; it's their decision how to manage their >> systems. All I can do is provide infrastructure to help. > > This was more of my intuition of how I would expect amd-pmf > integration to be done in Windows where one of the drivers might be > missing. > > Since only thinkpads are expected to do both, perhaps Mark can check > out how they work. I have a thinkpad that is 11th gen intel. > I'll do some checking next week (away this weekend). Mario will ping you offline for best testing to do. Mark
