On Tue, Jan 05, 2021 at 11:56:14AM +0100, Halil Pasic wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 10:40:26 -0800
> Ram Pai <linuxram@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jan 04, 2021 at 01:46:29PM +0100, Halil Pasic wrote:
> > > On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 23:15:50 -0800
> > > Ram Pai <linuxram@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 12:41:11PM +0100, Cornelia Huck wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 15:15:30 +0100
> > > [..]
> > > > > > > > > > +int kvmppc_svm_init(SecurableGuestMemory *sgm, Error **errp)
> > > > > > > > > > {
> > > > > > > > > > if (!kvm_check_extension(kvm_state, KVM_CAP_PPC_SECURABLE_GUEST)) {
> > > > > > > > > > error_setg(errp,
> > > > > > > > > > @@ -54,6 +58,11 @@ static int kvmppc_svm_init(Error **errp)
> > > > > > > > > > }
> > > > > > > > > > }
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > + /* add migration blocker */
> > > > > > > > > > + error_setg(&pef_mig_blocker, "PEF: Migration is not implemented");
> > > > > > > > > > + /* NB: This can fail if --only-migratable is used */
> > > > > > > > > > + migrate_add_blocker(pef_mig_blocker, &error_fatal);
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Just so that I understand: is PEF something that is enabled by the host
> > > > > > > > > (and the guest is either secured or doesn't start), or is it using a
> > > > > > > > > model like s390x PV where the guest initiates the transition into
> > > > > > > > > secured mode?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Like s390x PV it's initiated by the guest.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Asking because s390x adds the migration blocker only when the
> > > > > > > > > transition is actually happening (i.e. guests that do not transition
> > > > > > > > > into secure mode remain migratable.) This has the side effect that you
> > > > > > > > > might be able to start a machine with --only-migratable that
> > > > > > > > > transitions into a non-migratable machine via a guest action, if I'm
> > > > > > > > > not mistaken. Without the new object, I don't see a way to block with
> > > > > > > > > --only-migratable; with it, we should be able to do that. Not sure what
> > > > > > > > > the desirable behaviour is here.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The purpose of --only-migratable is specifically to prevent the machine
> > > > > > to transition to a non-migrate state IIUC. The guest transition to
> > > > > > secure mode should be nacked in this case.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, that's what happens for s390x: The guest tries to transition, QEMU
> > > > > can't add a migration blocker and fails the instruction used for
> > > > > transitioning, the guest sees the error.
> > > > >
> > > > > The drawback is that we see the failure only when we already launched
> > > > > the machine and the guest tries to transition. If I start QEMU with
> > > > > --only-migratable, it will refuse to start when non-migratable devices
> > > > > are configured in the command line, so I see the issue right from the
> > > > > start. (For s390x, that would possibly mean that we should not even
> > > > > present the cpu feature bit when only_migratable is set?)
> > > >
> > > > What happens in s390x, if the guest tries to transition to secure, when
> > > > the secure object is NOT configured on the machine?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Nothing in particular.
> > >
> > > > On PEF systems, the transition fails and the guest is terminated.
> > > >
> > > > My point is -- QEMU will not be able to predict in advance, what the
> > > > guest might or might not do, regardless of what devices and objects are
> > > > configured in the machine. If the guest does something unexpected, it
> > > > has to be terminated.
> > >
> > > We can't fail transition to secure when the secure object is not
> > > configured on the machine, because that would break pre-existing
> > > setups.
> >
> > So the instruction to switch-to-secure; which I believe is a ultracall
> > on S390,
>
> Yes it is an ultravisor call.
>
> > will return success even though the switch-to-secure has failed?
>
> No, I don't think so.
>
> > Will the guest continue as a normal guest or as a secure guest?
> >
>
> I think the guest will give up. It definitely can't continue as secure
> because the conversion to secure failed. And it should not continue as
> non-secure because that's not what the user asked for.
>
> I'm not sure you got my point. My point is: we may not break existing
> setups when adding new features. Secure execution can work without secure
> object today, and what works today shall keep working tomorrow and
> beyond.
>
> > > This feature is still to be shipped, but secure execution has
> > > already been shipped, but without migration support.
> > >
> > > That's why when you have both the secure object configured, and mandate
> > > migratability, the we can fail. Actually we should fail now, because the
> > > two options are not compatible: you can't have a qemu that is guaranteed
> > > to be migratable, and guaranteed to be able to operate in secure
> > > execution mode today. Failing early, and not on the guests opt-in would
> > > be preferable.
> > >
> > > After migration support is added, the combo should be fine, and probably
> > > also the default for secure execution machines.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > So one possible design choice is to let the guest know that migration
> > > > must be facilitated. It can then decide if it wants to continue as a
> > > > normal VM or terminate itself, or take the plunge and switch to secure.
> > > > A well behaving guest will not switch to secure.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't understand this point. Sorry.
> >
> > Qemu will present the 'must-support-migrate' and the 'secure-object' capability
> > to the guest.
>
> How does the qemu preset the 'must-support-migrate' and the
> 'secure-object' capability to the guest on (PPC and especially on s390)?
This can be modeled with device tree properties on PPC. However, I
figure, my proposal has its own flaws; as admitted below.
> And
> please clarify what do you mean by 'secure-object'. I used to believe I
> understood, but now I have the feeling I don't understand.
Its the feature that enables the machine to be capable of running secure
guests.
>
> >
> > The secure-aware guest, has three choices
> > (a) terminate itself. OR
> > (b) not call the switch-to-secure ucall, and continue as normal guest. OR
> > (c) call the switch-to-secure ucall.
> >
> > Legacy guests which are not aware of secure-object, will continue to do
> > (b).
> > New Guests which are secure-object aware, will observe that
> > 'must-support-migrate' and 'secure-object' capabilities are
> > incompatible. Hence will choose (a) or (b), but will never choose
> > (c).
> >
>
> The first problem is, IMHO, that you want to expose QEMU internals to the
> guest. For the guest, there is no such thing as 'must-support-migrate'
> (AFAIK).
right. good point. The key point is, migration must be
transparent to the guest. And that is where; I realize, my proposal falters.
>
> The other problem is, that migration and secure are not inherently
> incompatible. On s390x it is the property of the current host
> implementation, that we can't do migration for secure. But this can
> change in the future.
>
> >
> >
> > The main difference between my proposal and the other proposal is...
> >
> > In my proposal the guest makes the compatibility decision and acts
> > accordingly. In the other proposal QEMU makes the compatibility
> > decision and acts accordingly. I argue that QEMU cannot make a good
> > compatibility decision, because it wont know in advance, if the guest
> > will or will-not switch-to-secure.
> >
>
> You have a point there when you say that QEMU does not know in advance,
> if the guest will or will-not switch-to-secure. I made that argument
> regarding VIRTIO_F_ACCESS_PLATFORM (iommu_platform) myself. My idea
> was to flip that property on demand when the conversion occurs. David
> explained to me that this is not possible for ppc, and that having the
> "securable-guest-memory" property (or whatever the name will be)
> specified is a strong indication, that the VM is intended to be used as
> a secure VM (thus it is OK to hurt the case where the guest does not
> try to transition). That argument applies here as well.
As suggested by Cornelia Huck, what if QEMU disabled the
"securable-guest-memory" property if 'must-support-migrate' is enabled?
Offcourse; this has to be done with a big fat warning stating
"secure-guest-memory" feature is disabled on the machine.
Doing so, will continue to support guest that do not try to transition.
Guest that try to transition will fail and terminate themselves.
>
> But more importantly, as I explained above, the guest does not know if
> migration and secure are incompatible or not. So the guest can't make a
> good decision.
Agree.
RP
