On 08/20/2009 01:16 AM, Joel Becker wrote:
My high level concern is that we're optimizing for the active
sysadmin, not for libraries and management programs. configfs and
sysfs are easy to use from the shell, discoverable, and easily
scripted. But they discourage documentation, the text format is
ambiguous, and they require a lot of boilerplate to use in code.
I don't think they "discourage documentation" anymore than any
ioctl we've ever had. At least you can look at the names and values and
take a good stab at it (configfs is better than sysfs at this, by virtue
of what it does, but discoverability is certainly not as good as real
documentation).
With an ioctl() that isn't (well) documented, you have to go
read the structure and probably even read the code that uses the
structure to be sure what you are doing.
An ioctl structure and a configfs/sysfs readdir provide similar
information (the structure also provides the types of fields and isn't
able to hide some of these fields).
"Looking at the values" is what I meant by discouraging documentation.
That implies looking at a self-documenting live system. But that tells
you nothing about which fields were added in which versions, or fields
which are hidden because your hardware doesn't support them or because
you didn't echo 1 > somewhere.
You could argue that you can wrap *fs in a library that hides the
details of accessing it, but that's the wrong approach IMO. We
should make the information easy to use and manipulate for programs;
one of these programs can be a fuse filesystem for the active
sysadmin if someone thinks it's important.
You are absolutely correct that they are a boon to the sysadmin,
where in theory programs can do better with binary interfaces. Except
what programs? I can't do an ioctl or a syscall from a shell script
(no, using bash's network capabilities to talk to netlink does not
count). Same with perl/python/whatever where you have to write
boilerplate to create binary structures.
The maintainer of the subsystem should provide a library that talks to
the binary interface and a CLI program that talks to the library.
Boring nonkernely work. Alternatively a fuse filesystem to talk to the
library, or an IDL can replace the library.
These interfaces have two opposing forces acting on them. They
provide a reasonably nice way to cross the user<->kernel boundary, so
people want to use them. Programmatic things, like a power management
daemon for example, don't want sysadmins touching anything. It's just
an interface for the daemon.
Many things start oriented at people and then, if they're useful, cross
the lines to machines. You can convert a machine interface to a human
interface at the cost of some work, but it's difficult to undo the
deficiencies of a human oriented interface so it can be used by a program.
Conversely, some things are really knobs
for the sysadmin.
I disagree. If it's useful for a human, it's useful for a machine.
Moreover, *fs+bash is a user interface. It happens that bash is good at
processing files, and filesystems are easily discoverable, so we code to
that. But we make it more difficult to provide other interfaces to the
same controls.
There's nothing else to it. Why should they have to
code up a C program just to turn a knob?
Many kernel developers believe that userspace is burned into ROM and the
only thing they can change is the kernel. That turns out to be
incorrect. If you don't want users to write C programs to access your
interface, write your own library+CLI. That will have the added benefit
of providing meaningful errors as well ("Invalid argument" vs "frob must
be between 52 and 91"). The program can have a configuration file so
you don't need to reecho the values on boot. It can have a --daemon
mode and do something when an event occurs.
Configfs, as its name implies,
really does exist for that second case. It turns out that it's quite
nice to use for the first case too, but if folks wanted to go the
syscall route, no worries.
Eventually everything is used in the first case. For example in the
virtualization space it is common to have a zillion nodes running
virtual machine that are only accessed by a management node.
I've said it many times. We will never come up with one
over-arching solution to all the disparate use cases. Instead, we
should use each facility - syscalls, ioctls, sysfs, configfs, etc - as
appropriate. Even in the same program or subsystem.
configfs is optional, but sysfs is not. Everything exposed via sysfs
needs to continue to be exposed via sysfs, and new things as well for
consistency. So now if someone wants a syscall interface they must
duplicate the syscall interface, not replace it.
- ambiguity
What format is the attribute? does it accept lowercase or uppercase
hex digits? is there a newline at the end? how many digits can it
take before the attribute overflows? All of this has to be
documented and checked by the OS, otherwise we risk regressions
later. In contrast, __u64 says everything in a binary interface.
Um, is that __u64 a pointer to a userspace object? A key to a
lookup table? A file descriptor that is padded out? It's no less
ambiguous.
__u64 says everything about the type and space requirements of a field.
It doesn't describe everything (like the name of the field or what it
means) but it does provide a bunch of boring information that people
rarely document in other ways.
If my program reads a *fs field into a u32 and it later turns out the
field was a u64, I'll get an overflow. It's a lot harder to get that
wrong with a typed interface.
- lifetime and access control
If a process brings an object into being (using mkdir) and then
dies, the object remains behind. The syscall/ioctl approach ties
the object into an fd, which will be destroyed when the process
dies, and which can be passed around using SCM_RIGHTS, allowing a
server process to create and configure an object before passing it
to an unprivileged program
Most things here do *not* want to be tied to the lifetime of one
process. We don't want our cpu_freq governor changing just because the
power manager died.
Using file descriptors doesn't force you to tie their lifetime to the
fd; it only allows it.
You may argue, correctly, that syscalls and ioctls are not as
flexible. But this is because no one has invested the effort in
making them so. A struct passed as an argument to a syscall is not
extensible. But if you pass the size of the structure, and also a
bitmap of which attributes are present, you gain extensibility and
retain the atomicity property of a syscall interface. I don't think
a lot of effort is needed to make an extensible syscall interface
just as usable and a lot more efficient than configfs/sysfs. It
should also be simple to bolt a fuse interface on top to expose it
to us commandline types.
Your extensible syscall still needs to be known. The
flexibility provided by configfs and sysfs is of generic access to
non-generic things. It's different.
The follow-ups regarding the perf_counter call are a good
example. If you know the perf_counter call, you can code up a C program
that asks what attributes or things are there. But if you don't, you've
first got to find out that there's a perf_counter call, then learn how
to use it. With configfs/sysfs, you notice that there's now a
perf_counter directory under a tree, and you can figure out what
attributes and items are there.
Right, that's the great allure of *fs, discoverability. Everything is
at your fingertips. Except if you're writing a program to manage
things. The program can't explore *fs until it's run and usually does
not want to present nongeneric things in a generic way. Ultimately most
of our users are behind programs.
configfs is more maintainable that a bunch of hand-maintained
ioctls. But if we put some effort into an extendable syscall
infrastructure (perhaps to the point of using an IDL) I'm sure we
can improve on that without the problems pseudo filesystems
introduce.
Oh, boy, IDL :-) Seriously, if you can solve the "how do I just
poke around without actually writing C code or installing a
domain-specific binary" problem, you will probably get somewhere.
IDL is very unpleasant to work with but it gets the work done. I don't
see an issue with domain specific binaries (except that you have to
write them). Some say there's the problem of distribution, but if the
kernel distributed itself to the user somehow then the tool can be
distributed just as well (maybe via tools/).
I can't really fault a project for using configfs; it's an accepted
and recommented (by the community) interface. I'd much prefer it
though if there was an effort to create a usable fd/struct based
alternative.
Oh, and configfs was explicitly designed to be interface
agnostic to the client. The filesystem portions, to the best of my
ability, are not exposed to client drivers. So you can replace the
configfs filesystem interface with a system call set that does the same
operations, and no configfs user will actually need to change their
code (if you want to change from text values to non-text, that would
require changing the show/store operation prototypes, but that's about
it).
But the user visible part is now ABI. I have no issues with the kernel
internals.
--
I have a truly marvellous patch that fixes the bug which this
signature is too narrow to contain.
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