Hey everyone,
Please see below and let me know if you have questions
On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 10:17 AM <ietf-request@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
(Michael Richardson)
2. Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
(Michael Richardson)
3. Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
(mike stJohns)
4. Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
(Michael StJohns)
5. Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
(Bob Hinden)
6. Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
(Michael StJohns)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 09:23:14 -0400
From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: IETF Discussion <ietf@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
Message-ID: <6955.1491398594@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> At least once, I was questioned extensively when going from the US to
> a meeting in Canada. I had to show evidence of the meeting and my
> itinerary and convince them that I wasn?t entering Canada to take work
> away from a Canadian. That said, I still support holding meetings in
> Canada.
IETF98 was among the only times I was *NOT* asked questions like that when
entering the US. I did enter at Midway. That none of are asked such
questions when entering europe always surprises me.
I'm not sure what "extensively" means; if that means you were taken aside, or
not. I've been through that at the US border.
"Chair of work group" would always be a bad thing to say, since it has the
word "work" in it. Never talk about customers. The IETF is a meeting of
peers.
(Once because it was 5am, and I was just really loud since I was really still
asleep).
But, in all cases I felt confident that I would be treated with respect,
(even by the border guard who didn't seem to believe that e-tickets were
real).
I did *not* feel that way while preparing to travel to IETF98.
My fears were not realized; but as Eliot has said, it's *exactly* the
uncertainty that is a problem.
--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, Sandelman Software Works
-= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 09:25:54 -0400
From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Jared Mauch <jared@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: John Levine <johnl@xxxxxxxxx>, ietf@xxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
Message-ID: <7538.1491398754@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Jared Mauch <jared@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 05, 2017 at 12:53:47AM -0000, John Levine wrote:
>> I agree that Canada is a fairly easy country to get in and out of
>> (unless you have a DUI arrest) but it varies a lot so anecdotes about
>> entering Canada or any other country don't tell you much.
> Agreed. When I received my NEXUS card they explicity told me
> if I was traveling to a conference and was presenting that I would
> require additional paperwork, possibly including a letter of invitation,
> and/or a visa. I presume if I were presenting at an IETF WG I would
> check the appropriate box when registering as well and I would get
> the paperwork.
No! Only if you have been paid to present.
i.e. you are Al Gore coming to talk at the Air Canada center in Toronto.
We don't do presentations like that at the IETF.
The IETF is not like most non-technical "conferences".
--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, Sandelman Software Works
-= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 09:49:54 -0400
From: mike stJohns <mstjohns@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@xxxxxxx>
Cc: IETF <ietf@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
Message-ID: <620C9C4C-413C-439C-9109-B30BBAB921B1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Let's try this one more time
27 deaths in 100 would be 27%
27 deaths in 1000 would be 2.7%
27 deaths in 10000 would be .27%
27 deaths in 100000 would be a rate of .027%
The above are all expected deaths per year for the given population - so divide .027% by 52 to get .00051% per week. That's roughly the chance per individual to die during the week from murder. That's *my* risk for a week of the IETF and that's what should matter to each individual.
If you take that and multiply it by the IETF population you get .005 expected deaths within the IETF for the entire week.
Now you're using the "at least one" criteria, which works out to be 1-(1-.0000051)^1000 = .005 or .5% of at least one person dying in the week so your numbers are somewhat reasonable, but don't actually mean anything. E.g this is basically the birthday paradox which grows the probability quickly with the size of the set.
I'll give you an example. The death rate per 1000 in Germany per year for all causes is about 11. That works out to about a 20% chance of at least one person dying in the IETF during the week from all causes including murder if we all lived in Germany. The equivalent statistic for the US is 8 per 1000 which works out to 15% for the IETF for the week. But we don't seem to be dropping at anywhere close to that rate ( e.g. A death at the meting every 5 meetings).
Death probabilities are *highly* dependent on the specific populations you're looking at and actuaries get paid a lot of money to calculate them. The actual probabilities for the IETF would benefit from affluence, age, medical care, education, location, etc.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
>> On Apr 5, 2017, at 01:56, Carsten Bormann <cabo@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> On Apr 5, 2017, at 01:06, mike stJohns <mstjohns@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> .005 deaths per week per 1000
>
> Right, the 270 micromorts per year (~ 5 micromorts per week) you cited would lead to a ~ 0.5 % chance of anyone of the ~ 1000 IETFers getting killed ? a factor three less than the 1.5 % that my numbers result in, but not off by a large factor.
> (Still, I wonder where that factor three comes from.)
>
> Luckily, we hit the other 98.5 % this week.
>
> (I?m not that worried by the ~ 15 micromorts of risk I personally was subjected to, given that I spent on the order of 250 microlives for the time that went into this meeting.
> But my wife, who had been planning our wonderful vacation in Colombia earlier this year, definitely was.)
>
> Gr??e, Carsten
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 10:26:20 -0400
From: Michael StJohns <mstjohns@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: ietf@xxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
Message-ID: <cd5a3b9d-29dd-0d8b-b0a4-2a2465ea89b1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
I meant to include (damn iPad):
Carsten's original email was
> Statistically, the chance of any IETFer being killed last week was about 1.5 %.
"Any IETFer being killed" (I read the above as "Any [given] IETFer") is
the .00051% chance. "At least one IETFer" is the .5% chance. "Anyone
in the IETF" could mean either - precision is important and I still
don't actually know which Carsten meant.
Later, Mike
On 4/5/2017 9:49 AM, mike stJohns wrote:
> Let's try this one more time
>
>
> 27 deaths in 100 would be 27%
> 27 deaths in 1000 would be 2.7%
> 27 deaths in 10000 would be .27%
> 27 deaths in 100000 would be a rate of .027%
> The above are all expected deaths per year for the given population - so divide .027% by 52 to get .00051% per week. That's roughly the chance per individual to die during the week from murder. That's *my* risk for a week of the IETF and that's what should matter to each individual.
>
> If you take that and multiply it by the IETF population you get .005 expected deaths within the IETF for the entire week.
>
> Now you're using the "at least one" criteria, which works out to be 1-(1-.0000051)^1000 = .005 or .5% of at least one person dying in the week so your numbers are somewhat reasonable, but don't actually mean anything. E.g this is basically the birthday paradox which grows the probability quickly with the size of the set.
>
> I'll give you an example. The death rate per 1000 in Germany per year for all causes is about 11. That works out to about a 20% chance of at least one person dying in the IETF during the week from all causes including murder if we all lived in Germany. The equivalent statistic for the US is 8 per 1000 which works out to 15% for the IETF for the week. But we don't seem to be dropping at anywhere close to that rate ( e.g. A death at the meting every 5 meetings).
>
> Death probabilities are *highly* dependent on the specific populations you're looking at and actuaries get paid a lot of money to calculate them. The actual probabilities for the IETF would benefit from affluence, age, medical care, education, location, etc.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>>> On Apr 5, 2017, at 01:56, Carsten Bormann <cabo@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Apr 5, 2017, at 01:06, mike stJohns <mstjohns@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> .005 deaths per week per 1000
>> Right, the 270 micromorts per year (~ 5 micromorts per week) you cited would lead to a ~ 0.5 % chance of anyone of the ~ 1000 IETFers getting killed ? a factor three less than the 1.5 % that my numbers result in, but not off by a large factor.
>> (Still, I wonder where that factor three comes from.)
>>
>> Luckily, we hit the other 98.5 % this week.
>>
>> (I?m not that worried by the ~ 15 micromorts of risk I personally was subjected to, given that I spent on the order of 250 microlives for the time that went into this meeting.
>> But my wife, who had been planning our wonderful vacation in Colombia earlier this year, definitely was.)
>>
>> Gr??e, Carsten
>>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 08:13:47 -0700
From: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Michael StJohns <mstjohns@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@xxxxxxxxx>, IETF <ietf@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
Message-ID: <F51651E3-7668-4D00-8879-979680E19E38@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> On Apr 5, 2017, at 7:26 AM, Michael StJohns <mstjohns@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> I meant to include (damn iPad):
>
> Carsten's original email was
>> Statistically, the chance of any IETFer being killed last week was about 1.5 %.
>
> "Any IETFer being killed" (I read the above as "Any [given] IETFer") is the .00051% chance. "At least one IETFer" is the .5% chance. "Anyone in the IETF" could mean either - precision is important and I still don't actually know which Carsten meant.
I am happy that no IETFer got killed. We did have some heated debates :-)
Bob
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 11:17:29 -0400
From: Michael StJohns <mstjohns@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: IETF <ietf@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: IAOC requesting input on (potential) meeting cities
Message-ID: <421b15b4-628c-d790-3c08-ce72cf725ab9@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
On 4/5/2017 11:13 AM, Bob Hinden wrote:
>
> I am happy that no IETFer got killed. We did have some heated debates :-)
>
> Bob
>
>
I once saw Dave Clark after a particularly contentious side meeting at
an early IETF and said that I was glad I didn't see blood. His response
was classic Dave: "It was the kind of meeting where the only blood came
from biting your tongue."
Mike
The IETF - 30 years of Standards by Combat!
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Cloudbakers
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