Hi,
I am gay, I live in India, which has a similar sec 377 law on its books.
I hate these laws, I yearn for these laws to change.
I feel the pain of my fellow LGBTQ IETFers.... We do need to worry about things that others can take for granted.
But pulling out of Singapore, and setting a precedent, would also mean that we would limit ourselves to a small pool of venues and basically let go of 1-1-1*, that is unacceptable.
There are many of us LGBT folks, who reside in countries that have these homophobic laws, but we keep the fight on, we live openly, we work, we play, we pay our taxes, we protest, and we hope to change minds along the way..... some even attend IETF :)
Adding to Jordi's suggestion, we should support the local Singapore LGBT community, partner with them and organize something where we take a clear stand that laws must change. I feel this would be much more productive.
Dhruv
On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 3:53 PM, Leslie Daigle <ldaigle@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Tom,
As I indicated in my personal mail earlier this week, there was thinking that this message would be accompanied by a survey or some way to collected some structured feedback from the community.
In the end, the IAOC decided there was no way to do that properly (the challenges of constructing surveys so that they don’t bias for or against minorities, etc).
Hearing peoples’ desire to “see the data”, this message was sent. The IAOC is still collecting data, including from this discussion. In laying out the various elements (the obvious and the hidden costs (staff time and reprioritization), the restricted range of available alternative sites that mean we (the IAOC) don’t see how we can find a good alternate for a meeting in 18 months, I think we’re hoping that the context of our business choices is clearer, and maybe some other person in this discussion will have an insight that has so far escaped us as to how to have an acceptable IETF 100.
Speaking only for myself, I am deeply worried that, with only this discussion to hear, we are missing the quieter voices, the people who haven’t waded into the free-for-all, etc. Those types of voices are more readily solicited/heard in a working group environment where there is time to consider multiple angles and from a more abstracted or objective perspective. A working group is where we’ll ultimately come to conclusion on what broader set of of characteristics this community requires going forward.
Leslie.
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Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises LLC
ldaigle@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-------------------------------------------------------------------On 26 May 2016, at 3:57, tom p. wrote:
Leslie
I am unclear what, if any, action is expected as a result of this
message.
I understand that the IAOC has to make a decision and yes, I can provide
more input via venue-selection if I wish to, but is that all? Will the
IAOC now decide? If not, what is it waiting for (and how long is it
waiting)?
Tom Petch
----- Original Message -----
From: "IAOC Chair" <iaoc-chair@xxxxxxxx>
To: "IETF Announcement List" <ietf-announce@xxxxxxxx>
Cc: <recentattendees@xxxxxxxx>; <ietf@xxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 11:08 PM
All,believed that it is possible to hold a successful meeting in Singapore,
In the IAOC's previous message on this topic we stated that the IAOC
and that meeting in Singapore is the best option for IETF 100. This
statement was based on several factors, including evaluation of the site
based on the requirements and process now being updated and tracked in
draft-baker-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process-02. In particular,
this included consulting with the additional information sources
identified in the document (specialty travel services, etc), and no
specific issues were identified as to actual situation in Singapore.
More detail on the information we have to hand is provided below.
which leads us to continue exploring. The IETF Chair has been in touch
Additional arguments have come forward since our earlier messages,
with the meeting host, which is obviously another factor in whether we
can/should move. But we need to make a decision, so this message
contains such information as we have at present. We understand that it
is difficult to express a view about what to do in the absence of known
alternatives; but we do not know what the alternatives are now, and we
need urgently to make a decision, so we are sharing the incomplete
information we have in the interests of transparency.
onward positive impacts include:
Laying this out in a pro/con format:
Not Singapore:
--------------
If we cancel the contract we have for Singapore for IETF 100, the
that permits more IETF participants to be comfortable being present and
. We might have the opportunity to establish the meeting in a venue
engaging in a celebration of this milestone meeting, which is important
to some.
onward negative impacts include:
If we cancel the contract we have for Singapore for IETF 100, the
fee[1]
. Losing approximately $80,000 (USD) hotel agreement cancellation
incentives [2]
. Losing up to approximately $150,000 (USD) in Singapore government
Secretariat staff) who have full plates for lining up other future
. Re-prioritizing people time to find a new location (the IAD,
meetings; there’s an unknown amount of impact in terms of how that
impacts *other* meetings (N.B.: some of this effort is already underway
to obtain the information on possible alternatives and outline the
pros/cons outlined here).
and it takes us months to get all the pieces aligned to get to a signed
. Likelihood of IETF 100 in Asia is very small — we have few prospects
contract in Asia (Singapore took over a year). This would create
additional challenges for our Asian community members (travel distance,
visas).
works
. Possible shift of dates — to be able to find a venue elsewhere that
insofar as it would be easiest to use a North American site that we have
We have some wiggle room in the point about time to find a new venue
used before. If we have to consider non-North American, and/or new
venues where a site visit is needed, effort and cost will be higher.
an alternative venue, that is acceptable to community, is ready to put
Note, we should only cancel the Singapore contract once we know that
under contract. The cost of cancellation ($80k now) goes up to $192k
if we don’t cancel before November 2016 (i.e., a few months from now).
IAOC understands that to be:
We do have to give the hotel a reason for canceling our contract:
Reasons for Cancellation of IETF 100 Meeting in Singapore, and the
meeting
“ Singapore laws against same-sex relationships between men and
preventing the recognition of same-sex marriages could create
difficulties for same-sex partners and their children; these have
discouraged affected members of our community from participating
at the IETF meeting in November of 2017 and have also influenced
others to decline to attend in principled solidarity with them.
Accordingly, the IETF has decided to postpone indefinitely the
in Singapore and is pursuing alternative venues.”remaining gaps in the 3-4 year timeframe
If we stick with Singapore for IETF 100:
----------------------------------------
If we keep the contract we have for Singapore for IETF 100, the onward
positive impacts include:
. we have a functional meeting venue set for our 3rd meeting of 2017
. meeting site research resources can remain focused on filling in the
possible loss of government incentives
. we don’t have the financial hit of the cancellation fee, and
negative impacts include:
If we keep the contract we have for Singapore for IETF 100, the onward
perceive themselves as unwelcome and unsafe, unable to bring family
. we have a meeting at a location where some community members will
consideration for both getting work done and financial reasons
. possibly fewer attendees than we might otherwise expect — which is a
(registration fees per person)
please feel free to send it to venue-selection@xxxxxxxx . Please note
The above is the practical information as we can best scope it.
If you would like to provide some considered feedback on this matter,
that mailing list is a PUBLICLY archived “drop box” [3].
at a later meeting with those hotels in Singapore, if it is before 2020;
Leslie Daigle, for the IAOC.
[1] The cancellation fee can be recovered if it is used as a deposit
for this discussion, it’s perhaps best to consider it gone.
these in another country hosting IETF 100, but we are late to be
[2] Government business incentives are not unusual; we might obtain
expecting incentives and opportunities for good deals, and are unlikely
to get this in a North America venue.
it is not intended to archive dynamic conversations (i.e., don’t cc it
[3] The venue-selection mailing list is not open for subscription, and
on an e-mail discussion thread, because there will be too many
addressees and your mail won’t go through).
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Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises LLC
ldaigle@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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