Attached are raw minutes.
Many thanks to minute takers: Charles Perkins, J-C. Zuniga.
The room used an echo-ey boomy public address system so the notes were a
bit hard to take. We need better.
Alex
Le 06/04/2016 19:17, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :
Hi IETFers,
We had a great BoF today on Intelligent Transportation Systems (ITS).
The slides are at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/95/materials.html/#its
There is a liaison from ISO TC204, slide 13 of "ISO TC204 needs"
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-its-7.pdf
Please join the ITS email list at ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its and
comment on the charter.
Yours,
Alex and Dapeng
Minutes for [its]
? Introduction:
? Administrative - BOF Chairs - 5 min
? ITS Goals and Success Criteria - BOF Chairs - 10 min
? Problem Space:
? Tutorial of IP in vehicular communications - Alex Petrescu - 20 min
Randel Gelland: Since there are so many MAC & PHY, they use their own
messaging -- so could use IP. But vehicals are using different PHY
& MAC, so they can't communicate
Alex: But some of the radios are actually compatible
Bob Hinden: On "Topology" slide -- this is very simplified. There will be
many cars, with very dynamic interconnection
Alex: Yes. Gives more examples to support contention
Dapeng Liu: Once connectivity is established,
IP will enable better communication.
Pat Thaler: Even for compatible PHY, MACs may be different, so can't just day
"use IP"
Erik Nordmark: Have people considered what the IP addressing will look like?
In the car, the addressing is stable, but not outside the car. How
does one car know the address in the other car?
Alex: Yes, people are working on this. IETF can help.
Carlos: Are people working on the addressing sheme.
Dino: We have an IP mobility problem
Dirk Kircher: Broadcast. Semantic layer.
Alex: There may be multiple hops beween cars, and multiple hops in a car.
May need IPv4 broadcast, or IPv6 broadcast
Dino: Even without the mobility problem, we still would have physical layer
incompatible problems. But that is exactly what IP solves.
? ITS use-cases C-ACC and Platooning - Alex Petrescu - 10 min
draft-petrescu-its-cacc-sdo-04
<while presenting Platooning scalability slide>
Lou Berger: Hackable. What's the security model?
Alex: Do not have slides about this.
Eric Rescolo: Why make any representation about exceeding speedlimit.
Alex: It's just an example
Eric Rescolo: What if the police ask this question?
<comment from floor - add speed parameter>
Sandra: there is a lot of work being done on security
= Safety part
Eric Burdick: There are a lot of privacy issues. There is work about jamming.
It's not just Mobile IP.
Erik Nordmark: There was an IETF plenary that is relevant to security.
= Police can probaly go get the data
Eric Rescolo: Lots of work to be done -- prevent querying in the car.
? ITS V2V problem statement - Dapeng Liu - 5 min
draft-petrescu-its-problem-00
Randel Gelland: How do they know when they need to discover the other vehicles'
address?
Dirk Kircher: Sub-Problem(1) needs to be characterized correctly. What is a
realistic use case: Answer: C-ACC
...: do you have data?
Alex: How much data do you want?
Randel Gellens: This shows how IP is useful, but it's not why IP is needed?
So it is needed to exhibit the need, not just the use case.
Erik Nordmark: how identities (or even temporary identities) established?
Hannes Tshofenig: Is there a need for another layer for identity?
? ITS V2I problem statement - Jaehoon Paul Jeong - 5 min
draft-jeong-its-v2i-problem-statement-00
Charlie: What does it mean to "directly" connect to the RSO's network
Jaehoon: Exchange prefixes
Woman <did not understand, sorry>
Dino: a lost packet could be a catastrophe, amidst a lot of connection.
Need to avoid chit-chat. Should avoid multiple solutions.
If security requires Diffie-Hellman, may not get to finally say "BRAKE"
Dino: May not be able to go get a certificate.
<....?>: May not have time to
Dirk Kircher: Question about use case...
Alex: Some operators already provide connection between RSUs, and thus
can provide handovers
? Discussion - 10 min
Aaron Falk: Good to have the discussion. Useful confusion [??}
Dirk Kircher: Use cases need discussion, as well as network drivers.
Carlos: Are you talking about requirements?
Dirk: Network requirements...
Erik Nordmark: Don't really grasp exactly why IP is needed for single hop.
Will this use the same Internet? What about the timing requirements?
Stan Ratliff: V2V could be mobile ad hoc network?
Russ: Not if it's just one hop.
<...> : Want to know what cars are closing in. Could want to send message
just backwards.
Dino: What if you *don't* have IP? A lot of vehicles already have IP, so it
is already there. IP could simplify the automobile and the
communications. We will want to write applications. Will need to have
compatible format. We will want open standards.
Spencer Dawkins: Was waiting for a transport question. Applications might be
close to each other? About updating the car.
Hannes: Applications might be running on many different computers and media,
but still need to communicate.
Pat Thaler: Updating the car is a different sort of thing than V2I. We will
have updates at the service station, so you're not moving.
Three concerns: security problem. Time constraints.
Spencer: Need to understand what the volume of data would be.
Dirk: Is it, or is it not, TCP? There are a couple of protocols in use today.
Eric Burdick: Should assume that all protocols are broken.
The control mechanisms could collapse with the number of cars.
? What documents are needed to advance this work?
http://itu.int/go/ITScomms is complete list of ITU work items
Dino: Why include trains but not planes?
Alex: O.K.
Erik Burdick: What about when get onto the ocean?
Dirk: Some of the use cases are very dissimilar. Need to pick one problem.
Aaron from Jabber: Can assume use of certificates.
Dino: Need to look at the requirements and see if there are solutions,
even though there are a lot of work items.
Erik Nordmark: Can we figure out what is needed for the immediate term?
Randall Gellens: What about coordination with other SDOs? For instance
regarding IPv6-over-foo.
Alex: With a working group we can have a channel by which to do the coordination
Randall: We have that with ISO, 3GPP, etc.
Closing remarks:
We will publish the charter on the working group. In about a month we
will see if we have a rigorous charter.