okay, I've finally belatedly noticed the new ietf mail archive. (because I have a life these days.) Is e.g. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/GKYUQNOssvg-JIsPfj90_YI5r9w a permanent url? If not, should it be? (It's occasionally useful to refer to emails directly, and cite text with urls, but that doesn't look like a good choice. I mean, no date in url? as a hint?) thanks Lloyd Wood http://about.me/lloydwood