Hi Adrian,
I have to say that there were times that I felt the same as you, and
questioned what a DetNet WG would / should do. I think you hit the key
points in your mail and the main work that needs to be done is to say
how all the pieces fit together when operating over IETF owned data
planes, i.e. IP and MPLS, without modification. I think your last
paragraph summarizes the work to be done quiet well.
> Are you sure that this work is more than an applicability statement that shows
> how existing tools are used to achieve the desired function. This document might
> cover data plane, OAM, packet classification, configuration, control plane,
> security, etc. That would be useful work and would probably need a WG to achieve
> the necessary discussion.
This answers the question that the work belongs in the IETF in some WG,
but doesn't say that a new WG is needed. I came the conclusion that a
new WG is needed to ensure that the overall solution "works" and that
the data plane details are sufficiently defined.
Does this help?
Lou
On 9/18/2015 11:38 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> Hi IESG,
>
> I am struggling to understand why this work is being proposed in the Routing
> Area. Actually, I am slightly struggling to understand why it is being proposed
> for the IETF.
>
> This is not say I don't think a WG is needed, but the only work I see described
> here is a documentation of data plane work and an "overall architecture". I
> assume that any modification to a layer 2 data plane will be carried out by the
> SDO that owns that data plane. In particular, if changes to Ethernet are needed,
> they will be done in the IEEE. So, that leaves us with work at L3 for which the
> proposed charter text says IP or MPLS. Now, it seems to me that any change to IP
> or MPLS in the forwarding plane is alarming, and also that any change to IP
> would need to be done in the Internet Area.
>
> At the same time, the charter explicitly puts discussion of control plane out of
> scope.
>
> Are you sure that this work is more than an applicability statement that shows
> how existing tools are used to achieve the desired function. This document might
> cover data plane, OAM, packet classification, configuration, control plane,
> security, etc. That would be useful work and would probably need a WG to achieve
> the necessary discussion.
>
> Adrian
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: IETF-Announce [mailto:ietf-announce-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The
>> IESG
>> Sent: 18 September 2015 15:51
>> To: IETF-Announce
>> Cc: detnet WG
>> Subject: WG Review: Deterministic Networking (detnet)
>>
>> A new IETF working group has been proposed in the Routing Area. The IESG
>> has not made any determination yet. The following draft charter was
>> submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. Please send
>> your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg at ietf.org) by 2015-09-28.
>>
>> Deterministic Networking (detnet)
>> ------------------------------------------------
>> Current Status: Proposed WG
>>
>> Assigned Area Director:
>> Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@xxxxxxx>
>>
>> Mailing list
>> Address: detnet@xxxxxxxx
>> To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>> Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/detnet/
>>
>> Charter:
>>
>> The Deterministic Networking (DetNet) Working Group focuses on
>> deterministic data paths that operate over Layer 2 bridged and Layer 3
>> routed segments, where such paths can provide bounds on latency, loss,
>> and packet delay variation (jitter), and high reliability. The Working
>> Group addresses Layer 3 aspects in support of applications requiring
>> deterministic networking. The Working Group collaborates with IEEE802.1
>> Time Sensitive Networking (TSN), which is responsible for Layer 2
>> operations, to define a common architecture for both Layer 2 and Layer
>> 3. Example applications for deterministic networks include professional
>> and home audio/video, multimedia in transportation, engine control
>> systems, and other general industrial and vehicular applications being
>> consider by the IEEE 802.1 TSN Task Group.
>>
>> The Working Group will initially focus on solutions for networks that
>> are under a single administrative control or within a closed group of
>> administrative control; these include not only campus-wide networks but
>> also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on
>> solutions for large groups of domains such as the Internet.
>>
>> The Working Group will specify an overall architecture that encompasses
>> the data plane, OAM (Operations, Administration, and Maintenance), time
>> synchronization, management, control, and security aspects which are
>> required to enable a multi-hop path, and forwarding along the path, with
>> the deterministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, low
>> packet delay variation, and high reliability. The work applies to
>> point-to-point (unicast) and point-to-multipoint (multicast) flows which
>> can be characterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve
>> the appropriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse
>> the resources when they are no longer required. The work covers the
>> characterization of flows, the encapsulation of frames, the required
>> forwarding behaviors, as well as the state that may need to be
>> established in intermediate nodes. Candidate Layer 3 data plane
>> technologies that may be used, without modification, include: IP and
>> MPLS.
>>
>> The working group will document which deployment environments and types
>> of topologies are within (or outside) the scope of the DetNet
>> architecture. This work focuses on the data plane aspects and is
>> independent from any path setup protocol or mechanism. The data plane
>> will be compatible with the work done in IEEE802.1 TSN.
>>
>> The Working Group's scope explicitly excludes modifications of transport
>> protocols, OAM, Layer 3 forwarding, encapsulations, and control plane
>> protocols.
>>
>> DetNet is chartered to work in the following areas:
>>
>> Overall architecture: This work encompasses the data plane, OAM,
>> time synchronization, management, control, and security aspects.
>>
>> Data plane: This work will document how to use IP and/or MPLS to
>> support a data plane method of flow identification and packet
>> forwarding over Layer 3.
>>
>> Data flow information model: This work will identify the information
>> needed for flow establishment and control and be used by a
>> reservation protocol or by YANG data models. The work will be
>> independent from the protocol(s) used to control the flows
>> (e.g. YANG+NETCONF/RESTCONF, PCEP or GMPLS).
>>
>> Identification of additional YANG models: This work will document
>> device and link capabilities (feature support) and resources
>> (e.g. buffers, bandwidth) for use in device configuration and status
>> reporting. Such information may also be used when advertising the
>> deterministic network elements to a control plane. Control plane
>> related information will be independent from the protocol(s) which
>> may be used to advertise this information (e.g. IS-IS or GMPLS
>> extensions). Any new YANG models will be coordinated with the
>> Working Groups that define any augmented base models.
>>
>> As needed, problem statement: This effort will establish the
>> deployment environment and deterministic network requirements.
>>
>> As needed, vertical requirements: This effort will detail the
>> requirements for deterministic networks in various industries, for
>> example, professional audio, electrical utilities, building
>> automation systems, wireless for industrial applications.
>>
>> To investigate whether existing data plane encryption mechanisms can
>> be applied, possibly opportunistically, to improve security and
>> privacy.
>>
>> The WG coordinates with other relevant IETF Working Groups, including
>> CCAMP, PCE, PALS, TEAS, OSPF, IS-IS, TSVWG, and 6TisSCH. As the work
>> progresses, requirements may be provided to the responsible Working
>> Group, e.g. PCE, TEAS, and CCAMP, with DetNet acting as a focal point to
>> maintain the consistency of the overall architecture. The WG will liaise
>> with appropriate groups in IEEE and other Standards Development
>> Organizations (SDOs).
>>
>> WG deliverables include:
>>
>> As standard track or informational RFCs
>>
>> Overall architecture
>> Data plane specification
>> Data flow information model
>> YANG model augmentations
>>
>> WG sustaining/informational documents may include:
>>
>> These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be
>> maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working Group wiki
>> to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new comers:
>>
>> Problem statement and (constrained) deployment environments
>> User-driven use cases
>>
>>
>>
>> Milestones:
>
>