Dear Routing Area AD, I had many comments/issues regarding your area always addressed to you and including this issue which I hope my all comments (past/present) will help to make better practice/procedural progresses in this IETF Area. I am sorry also to any one receiving this email but I send it only to an AD, IETF, and IESG. This is not noise but a signal to IETF to progress, if you think it is noise please explain, and please notice that all particpants have rights under the IETF procedures not only managements. My reply below and if you want to continue discussing on any other list please inform me, but if you reply copying any list, I will have to do the same because you are part of management and I am not. On 6/6/13, Adrian Farrel <adrian@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Sorry to everyone for the noise this thread is creating. This thread containing my messages never creates noise, I beleive you may ne refering to your messages only as noise. Please note that I don't accept this describtion, I think that community messages regarding any I-D is never noise even if the IETF management could not handle the volume. I RECOMMEND any receiver that has noise in it to fix its problem without blaming transmitters. > Multiple questions that I have to answer. ok, that is why this list is discussing list for ietf progress, > >> > It falls to me to make a call on this issue before the document moves >> > on. >> > >> > Abdussalam has complained that he has not been acknowledged and has >> > objected to the current text in section 8. >> > The authors have responded on the MANET list >> > >> >> We believe that only comments that lead to significant improvements of >> >> the draft deserve a listing in the acknowledgment section, and we have >> >> therefore not modified the section. >> >> What was the WG decision? > > Are you asking whether there was an explicit consensus call within the > working > group on whether or not you should be acknowledged in this document? I think the question is clear, and is easy to answer. The answer is, there was no decision made by the WG or the community regarding my request of adding a name in the ack section. You send me back a question saying explicit consensus, it is simpler to make my question asking of notification of such reaction from management, which was not either established. I did not get a message saying that any kind of consensus was established privately/publicly on any IETF lists (please ask the WG chair because I am sure I did not received any answer for my request by the WG/community). > There was no such call in the working group or on the IETF list. Thanks for the answer, so I understand that the editors/management did not answer my request (one person from the community), just because they or AD did not beleive in my concerns without consulting the WG in any way. > >> Why any contribution that influnces the I-D ideas is not acknowledged? >> IMO, if a technical-idea within the I-D was discovered wrong by a >> participant, or a new technical-idea added to I-D from an input, then >> the I-D should be acknowledged. > > This opinion does not apply to your comments on this document. You did not > discover a wrong technical-idea. Your comments did not lead directly to the > addition of any new technical-idea. The question of I-D managers not acknowledging such input/contribution, was not answered if you agree to acknowledge discovering an error or adding a new idea. Regarding the opinion, do you agree with the opinion first? Regarding the error and missing information, I did discover error in the document and did found missing definitions if this informational I-D (after my contribution there was changes made to the document, please notice that) > >> > I have reviewed the email threads on the MANET mailing list and do not >> > consider that Abdussalam made contributions to the text of the >> > document. >> >> Didn't that person make review and discovered errors? > > "That person" is you. Yes but I said that because this message it not me defending me, it is me defending future wrong reaction of ignoring to acknowledge the persons in the community. If any I-D authors are best knowledgeable people in a special field they should not try to seek to dis-acknowledge the community efforts that changed few I-D ideas (even if the community person is not expert, that does not mean that authors have right to exclude contributors). > Yes, you made a review. Reviewing a document is not something authors > acknowledge in the IETF or (AFAIK) in academic journals. I disagree with your opinion, but do you think your opinion is in the IETF procedure, if yes please provide me with that procedure of not acknowledgement. I respect your opinion but it is wrong because in one sense yes documents in the world don't acknowledge all reviews (usually when they don't request it), one the other hand the world documents do acknowledge reviews when the document owner calls for review. Please note that this I-D did request/call for review and I was the only reveiwer in the WGLC, and my review made the authors change some ideas. > No, I don't think you discovered errors of any significance. My comments and discussions are in the MANET WG. The errors were; 1) not explaining the word *attack* in I-D version 2 and/or referencing explainations. 2) wrong explaination of physical communication in MANET. Both ideas ware changed please see the two versions of I-D 2 and 3. Example error idea in the I-D was: [I-D wrong idea] As wireless radio waves can be captured as well as transmitted by any wireless device within radio range. [my discovery contribution] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15250.html > > Caveating my answers below as describing a contribution to a document (not > a > contribution in the wider IETF sense) An IETF I-D contribution is a contribution (don't care about the editors' beleive of kind of contributions), small, large, substantial, non-substantial, minor, major, from-expert, not-from-expert, from-popular, from-non-popular, from-f2f-participant, from-remote-participant, etc. > >> Why don't you consider discovering an error as a contribution? > > I would personally consider discovering a major error as something I would > acknowledge it in a document I was editing. You use word major as if we know what it means. Something minor to you may be major to someone else don't you think. If your documents if for experts please mention that in you documents, please know your audiance/readers. I understand that IETF documents are for ALL the Internet Community on EARTH. Therefore, the word major/minor is relative to the reader not writer. > I would personally consider discovering multiple minor errors as something > I > would acknowledge it in a document I was editing. Again you say you, I want IETF opinion not editors, I want WG decisions not your decisions, however, I already waiting for the IESG decisions on this matter, and I understand that your decision is a one part of that but not full/final. One error discovery or multiple, both are contributions and are needed. In our volunteering work if the work/I-D/RFC has many mistakes we don't blame the editors but the community, but if the work had no mistake we give all credit to authors, IMHO, we always should refer to the community in good or bad outcomes of IETF documents. Therefore acknowledging the parts of community is important. > > However, there is no requirement for editors to act in that way. No, editors are required to edit/act what the community is seeking, why are they called editors for the WG? the authority is for the WG not editors. > Furthermore, > you do not fit into these categories for this document. I do fit, I think you should not decide now, let it to be done through IETF procedure. > >> Why don't you consider providing new ideas a contribution? > > I would consider providing major ideas as something I would acknowledge it > in a > document I was editing. > I would consider providing smaller ideas through text for inclusion in the > document as something I would acknowledge it in a document I was editing. > You do not fit into these categories for this document. I think I do fit from IETF point of view (maybe not yours). I gave my discovery of error, and if the editors want text I will give them, it is a discussion issue between both sides in a WG. Text is not much important like the idea, the idea is the most important thing in any organisation. English texting can be another contribution, or proof readings, but the main contribution is the idea that was changed. > >> What is your definition to contribution? > > As above, or written text that was included or modified for inclusion in a > document and represents a material or substantial part of the document. the idea is more important than text, if changed sentence idea we SHOULD acknowledge, if changed sentance text without changing idea we do not have to acknowledge. So text changing/adding without new-idea or English correction is not acknowledged im my opinion. > >> > I also believe that the comments he made did not advance the >> > content of the document. >> >> So I understand that you need to have advance the content then you >> acknowledge. >> >> > Furthermore, per multiple references (such as RFC 2026) the >> > Acknowledgements section is used to "properly acknowledge >> > major contributors. >> >> I am trying to find that condition of *major contribution*, > > I would borrow from 2026 and 5378 to say a material or substantial > contribution > to the document. > > And, before you ask, no-one is going to write down a rule that says 139 > characters is not substantial, but 140 is. > > This is one of the places where a principal of reasonableness applies. I > would > know a major contribution if I saw one. I did not see one from you in this > case. I will wait for the IESG decision on that. Major or minor is relative to the readers not to the writers. You have big experience but that does not mean you should exclude any minor contribution, I hope you reconsider that. Some experts don't like to show that non-popular found their mistakes, but Why thoes experts came to use IETF service which calls-reviews to all levels of experties to contribute to the document they author under IETF ownership? > >> >" Normal IETF business is to discuss not seek acknowledgement. >> >> Ideas, Comments and reviews are included in the discuss for drafts >> progress. Seeking acknowledgement is not wrong within IETF, but please >> consider *not acknowledging reviews* within IETF documents is not IETF >> culture (we are not paid so why you thinking much of the business, the >> IETF business will only progress with acknowledging the volunteers). > > If you want to change the way that the IETF participants (and document > authors/editors in particular) acknowledge reviews of their documents, then > please start a separate thread or, better still, write an I-D and see > whether > you can gain consensus. I know that, but your advise comes back to you also, if you want to change the community expectations close to your opinions, I advise you to write an I-D that shows where to exclude participants to IETF documents. >The last time you brought this topic up on this > list, I > do not recall seeing support. Few did not support which were less than 15 persons, because IMO, there was no evidance of editors seeking to ignore reviewers contributions. Also, change is difficult any where in any organisation, so it will take time, IMO, people realise that participating-experts of IETF are the minority comapared to the community. I decided to complain any procedure error first and then write about what happend, so I will wait to see what is the IESG decision regarding the acknowledgement request. Please note that I have many procedural I-D in mind but it depends on the right time to submit it and get support. > > The only reason I can find for someone being able to demand that they are > named > in an Acknowledgements Section is for conformance to the IETF's Rights > policies. My reason is that the truth SHOULD be reflected on the document. If you are editor I recommend you may say in the section thanks to x for his minor contribution if that satisfies your WG you work with, but not to ignore the truth. The truth is that IETF is calling for reviews from the community mostly not only from companies, and that your document changed an idea, so you ack. > >> > I do not propose to do an explicit consensus call on whether Abdussalam >> > should be named in this draft. >> >> IMO, it should have been done in the WG. > > Thank you for your opinion. > Are you asserting that consensus on the readiness of this document for a > publication request was incorrectly called by the working group chairs. > This > would be a serious allegation against the chairs and I would require > evidence > that there had been no consensus or that they had made an incorrect > assessment > of the consensus. No, I accepted that the I-D goes to IESG only the complaint request of acknowledgement and the community reviews in IETF-LC. The wg chair mentioned my complaint in his report. I wait for the IESG decisions related to this I-D. Best Regards Abdussalam Baryun A Participant working in IETF (subscribed) A Memebr of Internet Society (registered)