Hi Murray, I don't want me, you or anyother volunteer to leave, but also don't want IESG memebrs to leave. I don't disagree with the concept of discussing with managers or in the IETF to discuss with IESG (against indirect methods of doing that). Please don't ignore that the first message and all thread (related to subject) was not sent to IESG address (or even copied). Speaking directly to the problem or to the one making an error in performance is always the right thing to do. We all work together in a friendly environment, by solving all problems by direct effective efforts. Thanking you, AB On 4/14/13, Murray S. Kucherawy <superuser@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Abdussalam Baryun < > abdussalambaryun@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> How can a memebr of staff in a company argue with the manager about the >> manager's decisions or performance? Only Owners/shareholders can question >> managers and staff. IMO, the meeting/list discussions on any issue >> without an I-D written is the staff talking/working. >> > > That is, as John said, completely wrong for any organization that wants to > be successful. That goes for the IETF as well. If I thought the IETF > operated in the restricted way you're describing, I'd have walked away long > ago. The same goes for any serious job I've ever had. > > In my experience here, there's always room to ask for justification for a > decision, and push back on things with which you disagree, be they > technical or procedural. Different personalities respond to those > challenges differently, of course, but that doesn't change the point. > > >> I hope that when I review and comment on an I-D, it should be considered >> as one owner is talking, but seems like editors think they are the only >> owners. When IESG comment on the I-D it is managers/excutives talking. >> All >> parts are important to the best of output. >> > > The role of a document editor is to record consensus. If you comment on > something and nobody supports your perspective and the editor doesn't adopt > your suggestions, then the editor may seem like she or he is ignoring you > but has actually done the job properly. > > -MSK >