At 06:09 30-11-2012, George, Wes wrote:
[WEG] My original message simply notes that this is the 3rd or more
time in my recent memory that there has been a serious question
within some part of the IETF about when in a document's lifecycle
and maturity is the "right" time to adopt it as a WG document, and
whether it is appropriate to discuss an individual document in a WG
at any length without adopting it. It seemed odd to me that there
would be this much confusion on the matter, and I provided several
examples of different philosophies that I have observed when it
comes to handling this question. The response I got back indicated
that WG adoption of drafts isn't really "a thing" as far as the
official documentation of document lifecycle is concerned, which
made me wonder if perhaps we do as much WG adoption of drafts as we
do mainly out of inertia, either people doing it because that's how
they've seen others do it in the past, or doing it because they
assume it's part of the documented process, rather than for any real
reason. I'm not a big fan of doing things for no reason, so the
ensuing discussion was intended to tease this out a bit to see
whether we should have some clearer guidelines around WG draft
adoption, better education on the reasoning behind it, or whether
maybe we should stop doing it. Is it the largest problem facing the
IETF? Not by a long shot. But it seemed worth a little discussion,
at least to me.
You seem to have things under control in SUNSET. After reading your
messages to this mailing list I didn't understand what you were asking.
There is no such thing as a "right" time to adopt a document. Look
at it this way, if you get it right nobody will know, if you get it
wrong the working group will say bad things about you, if you get it
really wrong the Area Director will be on your back. The choices for
a working group chair are:
(a) To get the work done
(b) Not to do anything wrong
If you choose (a) you will end up a lot of enemies. If you choose
(b) you may or may not have a long career in the IETF.
It is possible to discuss an individual document in a working group
without adopting it. It is, as you mentioned, a matter of
philosophy. If you find it disruptive you can say no.
A lot of the things done in the IETF are done because we see others
doing it. In essence they are done for no reason. On the Internet
there is something called a sense of entitlement. The author of a
draft may assume that he has a right to a RFC number. You can help
him/her to get that RFC number as you were selected as working group
chair to make everyone happy (or is it something else :-)).
I'll quote
http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/edu/attachment/wiki/IETF78/IETF78-WGchairs-Adrian-Farrel.ppt?format=raw
'"Do you think this I-D should become a WG draft?"
- Can easily turn into a vote
- Ask for reasons to be given to accompany a "no" opinion
- Ask for expressions of willingness to work on or review the draft
Avoid votes!'
[WEG] process we don't happen to like because it adds no value or
confuses people or wastes time is very much a problem. But I didn't
bring this up because I didn't like the process, I brought it up
because I was seeking a little clarity on the underlying reasons we
use the process (at least partially to improve my own knowledge as a
WG chair and draft author). Thus far that clarity has still not
presented itself.
I'll edit what you said: "[adoption] doesn't happen because it adds
no value or confuses people or wastes time".
It seems that what you are asking about is a sanity check. You could
sound some people to get a sense of which direction to take.
Regards,
-sm