I've certainly been to BOFs where I might think "this is a new topic" to discover that it's actually indistinguishable from a WG I just hadn't attended before - the documents already exist, and the inner circle of who knows who is already in place. (The inner circle effect can be seen by examining minutes and seeing how often people are identified just by forename, because anyone reading the minutes is expected to know who's who in this group. Even the set of minutes Brian recommended had one such occurrence.) -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearlove@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687 -----Original Message----- From: ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Randy Bush Sent: 28 November 2012 11:57 To: John Leslie Cc: Barry Leiba; IETF discussion list Subject: Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" ----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or from the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages. -------------------------------------------------------- > I'm increasingly seeing a "paradigm" where the review happens _before_ > adoption as a WG draft. and one consequence is that the design gets done outside of the ietf process. randy ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ********************************************************************