I don't have too much to say on whether the IESG is effective. Our standards production rate and the market uptake of same seems to speak for itself. I also don't have the numbers Dave is looking for either. However, I would like to contribute my own anecdotal experience, involving at least one draft from the person who kicked off this debate (not you Dave or Brian). I reviewed on behalf of the apps-area one of the drafts he wrote and found a serious concern, and reported it. He ignored my review at his peril, and then complained when he got slapped with a DISCUSS. I don't know whether the AD based his DISCUSS on my review or not, but clearly there was, at the very least, a substantial disagreement. What's particular egregious is that here we had a cross-area expert review process that identified a problem that could have been resolved without him wasting IESG time. Instead, we are all incompetent, and don't know what we're talking about, and the process is broken. It has not occurred to this guy that he might have made an error in judgment. In fact he made many. Eliot _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf