Rui, I kindly propose not to refer in this context to the Feb2011 WP3 and SG15 plenary meetings.... Very unfortunately, it was far away from being a technical discussion.....or technical poll. Therefore it cannot be a reference to any argument in this context. Regards, Nurit -----Original Message----- From: ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ext Rui Costa Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 8:33 PM To: David Allan I Cc: mpls@xxxxxxxx; ietf@xxxxxxxx; IETF-Announce Subject: RE: [mpls] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi-05.txt>(Proactive Connectivity Verification, Continuity Check and Remote Defectindication for MPLS Transport Profile) to Proposed Standard David, T-MPLS rose from MPLS/IP's OAM blanks. Our main interest on it is the simple/reliable OAM we had in SDH but lost in MPLS/IP. Otherwise, the work in T-MPLS or MPLS-TP would be rather pointless. ITU-T was historically the right place to define such OAM. So, our interest started with ITU-T's work in T-MPLS and not when IETF joined. We value IETF's work, and in 2008, when the IETF rose doubts about future interoperability between T-MPLS and MPLS/IP (and the "danger to the internet"), even though all T-MPLS Recommendations were approved and the OAM one was ready for approval, a decision was made to listen carefully to MPLS/IP's top experts' input. IETF's unilateral decision to select BFD was IMHO a surprise: being a primary goal in T-MPLS, i'd assume OAM definition was ITU-T's responsibility/expertise or at least a compromise between the 2 SDOs. ITU-T's not just a boilerplate stamper. Hearing that "the decision was expressed in mpls-tp-analysis draft" was another surprise: among the possible ways, the document showed, IMHO, 1731 as the closest one to requirements. We don't need a requirement to agree on reusing as most as possible MPLS and PW: it's common sense. However, it can't distract us from primary goals. "The issue is not code point, which is the trivial part. It is reuse of the majority of the implementation. Again, pretty basic." In other words, the problem is not backwards compatibility, (ergo the "danger to the internet" problem never really existed) but maintaining particular deployed platforms. If we had to convert cars into planes, we couldn't say "to reuse the implementation, we can't add wings": they wouldn't fly. I'm used to FW/HW development and i don't share your cost/simplicity view. (Please check other LC responses on this particular point.) I know field network support and think you'd change your opinion if you had to work on 24h field network support. I agree with you that other opinions exist, counting not only manufacturers but also operators. On the operators that don't agree with you are certainly clients of yours. It's none of my business that you view their opinions as "grumblings", but that's far from describing the polls' results in the Feb2011 WG3 and SG15 plenaries, showing a minority sharing your view, and that, although those not subscribing it tolerate its evolution, you don't theirs. Operators and their clients are the ones that, at the end of the day, pay for networks. From the above, it'll be IMHO impossible to understand if these Recommendations don't take into account these "grumblers'" view, other than the obsession of those insisting to sell swiss knifes to those who just want sharp scalpels. Why don't we call that also "not constructive"? "[R:] IMHO, between your MPLS-TP view and MPLS/IP, it becomes more and more difficult to tell which is which. [D:]That is because MPLS-TP is not a new techology, it is an addition to the entire MPLS protocol suite." Yes, i understand your view, David, but i'm sure you and i don't subscribe this one: "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which". Hope this helps. My comrade cents, Rui -----Original Message----- From: David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: sexta-feira, 8 de Julho de 2011 17:13 To: Rui Costa; Stewart Bryant Cc: erminio.ottone_69@xxxxxxxxx; mpls@xxxxxxxx; ietf@xxxxxxxx; IETF-Announce Subject: RE: [mpls] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi-05.txt> (Proactive Connectivity Verification, Continuity Check and Remote Defect indication for MPLS Transport Profile) to Proposed Standard Rui: You wrote: >Reading something, keeping it on record, without effect in the draft and "ignoring comments" have IMHO similar outcomes. As author of the draft you are free to do it. These standards have a great impact >in our work, so i'm also free to write what i did. Numerous comments did have effect on the draft and those that didn't were either simply not actionable, were rhetorical or not constructive, and a few had to be balanced against comments coming from the MPLS & BFD WGs. I would translate "ingored" or "without effect" to "did not get one'e way". In the standards process it happens. >My technical concerns regarding this draft were expressed... >...in the (ITU-T -> IETF, Feb/2011) liaison regarding it (LS281, i believe); >...in operators' meetings' that took place during ITU-T's Feb/2011 plenary meeting; I and the WG don't really have access to private grumblings. Lots of other opinions were expressed as well, and they did not all agree with you. >Some: >CC/CV >I don't understand the need for 2 types of packets: a single type allows CC; mismatching identifiers in the same CC packets allow CV. >Besides adding complexity, we whether always activate both or potentiate undetected mismerges. OK, lets walk through this. We want CV all the time so that any misconectivity can be detected, but on the list it was expressed that the group did not want the overhead of processing the source MEP TLV in every packet in order to achieve this. We could carry it in every packet and have the receiver simply ignore most of them, but then that would make the defect entry criteria compeltely random and the exit criteria unreliable as well, not really a good design. Hence they are separated using different ACH code points and the receiver is obliged to process every source MEP TLV it receives. I hope this is clear. >(BTW: can't understand how we propose one ACH codepoint to CC, another for CV, [counting other drafts, another for frame loss ...] but don't consider assigning 1 single ACH protocol identifier codepoint >as requested by ITU-T) Because that puts you into two protocol ID demultiplexing steps per OAM PDU recevied to determine the intended function. Hence COSTS MORE. That is pretty basic... > Uni P2P / P2MP > I can't see how BFD will support unidir and hence P2MP other than... > ...eliminating the session "state variable" (down, init, up), aiming just the state variables we really need, bringing us to something similar to 1731, eventually with other bits on the wire or... > ...using IP to create the reverse way, which we cannot assume per requirements; > Will we create a complete different tool for that? > (BFD's B="bidirectional") I would not go so far as to say "similar to 1731", there is actually a lot of difference under the hood. As for uni-directional BFD, that is a BFD WG problem at the moment. > Provisioning list > This is an MPLS profile/subset (and i heard) achievable through a particular configuration. So, i expect each draft-ietf-mpls-TP-* to focus on that profile/configuration. However, i keep seeing > references f.i. to IP encapsulations unexpected under TP's OAM. > I don't thus understand what the aim is: do we expect this in TP, are we talking about MPLS in general?... The TP profile is never quite delimited. > Does chapter 4 contain ALL the configurable parameters list agreed to provide in the comparison session? It should. As for encapsulations, unless TP is in a complete island not connected to anything (which as a network is rather useless) it will be expected to interoperate with the rest of the MPLS architecture, and the stated intention of tool development was that what resulted was applicable to the broader MPLS architecture. Which means backwards compatiblity and procedures for interoperation. > Backwards compatibility > This was the main argument risen to ground MPLS-TP OAM on BFD. It's not a better argument than grounding MPLS-TP OAM on 1731 due to its ETH deployment plus coherence with SDH, OTN, as defended by ITU-T. > For reasons like the above, however, MPLS-TP BFD won't be backwards compatible with previous BFD (even considering just CC/CV). They don't even share the same codepoint. The issue is not code point, which is the trivial part. It is reuse of the majority of the implementation. Again, pretty basic. >Simplicity >Whether we look to PDH, SDH, OTN or ETH, ITU-T's approach to CC is simpler: in each flow, a standard defined nr of constant heartbeat signals (with standard constant or provisioned period - no >auto/negotiated -) means OK. A standard defined number of misses means lost Rx connection. An RDI, the only articulation between Rx and Tx flows, meaningful in bidirectional applications, allows each >pear to identify Tx problems. >This OAM simplicity is the key for reliable fail finger pointing, performance reports and protection. Also to allow scaling, more implementation opportunities/manufacturers, which is valuable for >operators. Well IMO there was not a lot of interest in T-MPLS until the IETF was going to re-define it and make it compatible with IP/MPLS. So there was an industry wide "design intent" implied here. > IMHO, between your MPLS-TP view and MPLS/IP, it becomes more and more difficult to tell which is which. That is because MPLS-TP is not a new techology, it is an addition to the entire MPLS protocol suite. Hope this helps D -----Original Message----- From: David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: quarta-feira, 6 de Julho de 2011 19:25 To: erminio.ottone_69@xxxxxxxxx; Rui Costa; ietf@xxxxxxxx; IETF-Announce Cc: mpls@xxxxxxxx Subject: RE: [mpls] R: Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi-05.txt> (Proactive Connectivity Verification, Continuity Check and Remote Defect indication for MPLS Transport Profile) to Proposed Standard Hi Erminio: <snipped> >Several service providers regarded this draft as not meeting their >transport networks' needs. E> This is a true statement: the solution in this draft is useless for many MPLS- TP deployments. The two statements do not necessarily follow. What we established during discussions at the SG15 plenary in February was that the issue some service providers had was that the IETF BFD solution exceeded their requirements in that there was additional functionality they did not see a need for, and that they considered any additional functionality parasitic. However this is a consequence of adapting an existing technology to a new application. I do not see any way around that. And the entire joint project was based on the premise of engineering re-use not greenfield design. That is what it said on the tin up front, and IMO why when the IETF started down this path packet transport transitioned from being a minority sport to mainstream, so it is a bit late to cry foul.... My 2 cents Dave -----Original Message----- From: David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: quarta-feira, 6 de Julho de 2011 18:36 To: erminio.ottone_69@xxxxxxxxx; loa@xxxxx; Rui Costa Cc: mpls@xxxxxxxx; ietf@xxxxxxxx; IETF-Announce Subject: RE: [mpls] R: Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi-05.txt> (Proactive Connectivity Verification, Continuity Check and Remote Defect indication for MPLS Transport Profile) to Proposed Standard Hi Erminio: Two of the three document editors were present at SG15 plenary in February where the comments originated. The revised meeting schedule resulted in a day spent going through the document with the editors. IMO there were lots of discussion and legitimate issues with the document identified and corrected so it was a useful session. The liaison of same was in many ways *after the fact*. Cheers Dave -----Original Message----- From: erminio.ottone_69@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:erminio.ottone_69@xxxxxxxxx] Sent: quarta-feira, 6 de Julho de 2011 18:34 To: Rui Costa; ietf@xxxxxxxx; IETF-Announce Cc: mpls@xxxxxxxx Subject: R: Re: [mpls] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi-05.txt> (Proactive Connectivity Verification, Continuity Check and Remote Defect indication for MPLS Transport Profile) to Proposed Standard The way this draft has been developed is a bit strange. The poll for its adoption as a WG document was halted by the MPLS WG chair because "it is not possible to judge consensus": http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mpls/current/msg04502.html The lack of consensus was motivated by serious technical concerns raised by several transport experts during the poll. Nevertheless the MPLS WG chair decided to adopt the draft as a WG document: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mpls/current/msg04512.html After several WG revisions and WG LCs, the technical issues have not been resolved. >Several service providers regarded this draft as not meeting their >transport networks' needs. This is a true statement: the solution in this draft is useless for many MPLS- TP deployments. -----Original Message----- From: erminio.ottone_69@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:erminio.ottone_69@xxxxxxxxx] Sent: quarta-feira, 6 de Julho de 2011 18:26 To: loa@xxxxx; Rui Costa Cc: mpls@xxxxxxxx; ietf@xxxxxxxx; IETF-Announce Subject: R: Re: [mpls] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi-05.txt> (Proactive Connectivity Verification, Continuity Check and Remote Defect indication for MPLS Transport Profile) to Proposed Standard > Version -04 of the document was published June 28th. > > The publication request for draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi was sent > June 29th. > So when the WG LC to confirm the LC comment resolution has been launched? The proto write-up says: It has also passed a working roup call to verify that LC comments were correctly with minor comments. It also says: The comments has been carefully discussed between the authors and people making the comments and has been resolved. But it seems that some comments have not been discussed with the authors of the comments. When ITU-T Q10/15 has been involved in discussing its comments? -----Original Message----- From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@xxxxx] Sent: quarta-feira, 6 de Julho de 2011 16:44 To: Rui Costa Cc: ietf@xxxxxxxx; IETF-Announce; mpls@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [mpls] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi-05.txt> (Proactive Connectivity Verification, Continuity Check and Remote Defect indication for MPLS Transport Profile) to Proposed Standard All, Since someone has commented about the process used for resolving questions on draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi I am supplying some details below. The history of draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi working group review process is: On February 3rd 2011 the working group last call was issued on version -03 This was copied to the the Ad Hoc Team List and liaised to SG15 also on February 3rd This working group last call ended om Feb 28 On Feb 28 we also received a liaison with comments from SG15 The authors compiled a list of all comments received as part the MPLS working group last call; these comments - and the intended resolution - is included in the meeting minutes from the Prague meeting: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/80/slides/mpls-9.pdf During the IETF meeting in Prague, we agreed with the BFD working group to do a separate working group last callfor the BFD working group The (BFD) working group last call was started on March 30th and ran for 13 days. The last call ended on April 11th. The authors have since worked hard to resolve comments, some issue has been brought to the working group mailing list for resolution. Version -04 of the document was published June 28th. The publication request for draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi was sent June 29th. The AD review resulted in a "New ID needed" due to mostly editorial comments. Version -05 was published on June 29 and the IETF last call started as soon as the new ID was avaialbe. The current list of Last Call Comments resoltion is also avaiable at: http://www.pi.nu/~loa/cc-cv-rdi-Last-Call-Comments.xls The list of issues that the authors kept very carefully, shows without doubt that no comments been ignored. Loa mpls wg document shepherd -----Original Message----- From: David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: quarta-feira, 6 de Julho de 2011 14:58 To: Rui Costa; ietf@xxxxxxxx; IETF-Announce Cc: mpls@xxxxxxxx Subject: RE: [mpls] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi-05.txt> (Proactive Connectivity Verification, Continuity Check and Remote Defect indication for MPLS Transport Profile) to Proposed Standard Hi Rui: The comments were not ignored, the resolution of the Q10 comments as well as those collected from the MPLS WG was presented at the last IETF. My spreadsheet from which that report was generated and has been augmented to include the BFD WG comments is available at http://www.pi.nu/~loa/cc-cv-rdi-Last-Call-Comments.xls So you know... Dave -----Original Message----- From: ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rui Costa Sent: segunda-feira, 4 de Julho de 2011 23:03 To: ietf@xxxxxxxx; IETF-Announce Cc: mpls@xxxxxxxx Subject: RE: [mpls] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi-05.txt> (Proactive Connectivity Verification, Continuity Check and Remote Defect indication for MPLS Transport Profile) to Proposed Standard IMHO and for the record: ITU-T comments regarding this draft haven't been discussed with ITU-T but were simply ignored. No LS describing these comments' resolution was sent. Several service providers regarded this draft as not meeting their transport networks' needs. [The v03 draft was published in Feb and went to WG LC. The v04 draft addressing WG LC comments was published on the 28th June (same date as the proto write-up). When was the WG LC launched, to verify LC comments resolution?] Regards, Rui -----Original Message----- From: mpls-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:mpls-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The IESG Sent: quinta-feira, 30 de Junho de 2011 14:47 To: IETF-Announce Cc: mpls@xxxxxxxx Subject: [mpls] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi-05.txt> (Proactive Connectivity Verification, Continuity Check and Remote Defect indication for MPLS Transport Profile) to Proposed Standard The IESG has received a request from the Multiprotocol Label Switching WG (mpls) to consider the following document: - 'Proactive Connectivity Verification, Continuity Check and Remote Defect indication for MPLS Transport Profile' <draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi-05.txt> as a Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@xxxxxxxx mailing lists by 2011-07-14. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@xxxxxxxx instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract Continuity Check, Proactive Connectivity Verification and Remote Defect Indication functionalities are required for MPLS-TP OAM. Continuity Check monitors the integrity of the continuity of the label switched path for any loss of continuity defect. Connectivity verification monitors the integrity of the routing of the label switched path between sink and source for any connectivity issues. Remote defect indication enables an End Point to report, to its associated End Point, a fault or defect condition that it detects on a pseudo wire, label switched path or Section. This document specifies methods for proactive continuity check, continuity verification, and remote defect indication for MPLS-TP label switched paths, pseudo wires and Sections using Bidirectional Forwarding Detection. The file can be obtained via http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi/ IESG discussion can be tracked via http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-tp-cc-cv-rdi/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. _______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf