At the risk of rehashing discussion from WGLC... Ole has addressed some of your points, I'll address a few others below inline. From: v6ops-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:v6ops-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith Moore Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 1:22 PM To: ietf@xxxxxxxx Cc: v6ops@xxxxxxxx; IETF-Announce Subject: Re: [v6ops] Last Call: <draft-ietf-v6ops-6to4-to-historic-04.txt> (Request to move Connection of IPv6 Domains via IPv4 Clouds (6to4) to Historic status) to Informational RFC 6to4 still has many valid use cases, and there is not a suitable replacement for it that has been deployed. Until there is a suitable replacement, or until there is widespread ISP support for native IPv6, reclassification of this document to Historic is premature. (6rd is not a suitable replacement for 6to4, as it is intended for very different use cases than 6to4.) WEG> Please substantiate these claims. What are the use cases, and why are there no other solutions for those specific use cases? What is considered "widespread ISP support for native IPV6"? "The IETF sees no evolutionary future for the mechanism and it is not recommended to include this mechanism in new implementations." 6to4 never was intended to have an "evolutionary future". It was always intended as a near-term solution to allow consenting hosts and networks to interchange IPv6 traffic without prior support from the IPv4 networks that carry the traffic. It is premature to recommend that 6to4 be removed from implementations. We do not know how long it will take ISPs to universally deploy IPv6. Until they do, there will be a need for individuals and enterprises using IPv6-based applications to be able to exchange IPv6 traffic with hosts that only have IPv4 connectivity. WEG> As was discussed in the WGLC for this document, enterprise applications will not realistically use 6to4 as a means to reach IPv6 for business critical applications. It's simply not reliable enough. It's also probably unlikely that those will go directly to IPv6-only vs using dual-stack to ease that transition. Individuals and Enterprises that use IPv6-only applications will need to make IPv6 service a non-negotiable requirement for their ISPs, networks, and devices rather than hoping that 6to4 works. All of the criticisms in section 3 have to do with the use of relays to exchange traffic between 6to4 and native IPv6. In many cases the criticisms are overbroad. Not all uses of 6to4 involve relays. For some of those that do need to use relays, it is not necessarily the case that the relay is operated by an unknown third-party. WEG> Again, please substantiate this with examples of implementations that are actively using non-relay 6to4. Also, the number of applications of 6to4 that can be guaranteed to avoid any unknown 3rd party relays is extremely limited due to the nature of anycast and 6to4's asymmetric routing. The protocol action requested in this draft in no way prevents one or more consenting networks from using 6to4 and continuing to run relays for their local traffic indefinitely - in fact, it even provides a reference to a document to show them how to make it work as well as possible. It is simply saying that it's not a good idea. The recommendations to treat 6to4 as a service of last resort will do harm to users and applications using it. A better recommendation is for hosts to disable 6to4 by default. WEG> this seems to be to be splitting hairs. Please explain the distinction you're making here. Disable by default means never use. Use as last resort means use when no better IP connectivity is available. I would think if you insist that 6to4 must stick around you'd prefer it to be enabled. I understand that there are different values of "better" but if 6to4 works, this means that the host is not behind a NAT, and therefore by most definitions, its IPv4 connectivity would be better than 6to4. If it's behind an IPv4 NAT, and therefore IPv6 connectivity would be better (especially if there are one or more applications that work via IPv6 but not via IPv4 + NAT) then 6to4 won't work in lieu of IPv6 connectivity anyway. Wes George This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf