Hello, Here are some comments on this draft for IETF LC. There are some editorial nits, some errors that might be considered editorial but there is a serious issue with the Security Considerations that I think needs addressing. I'll start with the security issue since it's the most serious (and some may stop reading after getting to the editorial complaints). Issue in Security Considerations: In IKEv2 both sides present identities in the form of an ID payload. EAP also has an identity exchange that is not useful for authentication so EAP methods typically include their own, separate, identity exchange. In many cases that identity is in a protected channel from the EAP peer to the EAP server. When the EAP server is not co-located with the IKEv2 implementation (i.e. EAP is offloaded to a separate server) the identities that are actually authenticated are unknown and/or unverified. Section 6.2 mentions this from the client's point-of-view-- "after the client has verified the AUTH payload sent by the IKEv2 gateway, it knows that it is talking to SOME gateway trusted by the home AAA server, but not which one." This is used as a segue to the "lying NAS problem", which I have note below is not really solved so this problem isn't really addressed properly. But the problem is worse. The point-of-view of the gateway is never mentioned. The gateway may know some anonymous identity, or an identity that is colored or obfuscated that is useful only by the EAP server to determine which EAP method to offer. It does not know what the real client identity is. The identity that gets authenticated is unknown to the gateway! Unfortunately, it is the authenticated identity that the gateway must use to look up an entry in the IPsec Security Policy Datbase (see RFC 4301) that says what kind of security (bypass, drop, protect rules, etc) to apply to the client's packets. It is therefore not possible to properly support RFC 4301 when using this EAP-only method of authentication. Furthermore, the only identity available to the gateway can be forged so the client can achieve more favorable access to the protected network (a more "generous" security policy) than the gateway would have given it had it known its _real_ identity. I think there has to be a top-down analysis of RFC 4301 and how this scheme impacts it. Each part of RFC 4301 that cannot be supported or can only be supported in a limited manner must be spelled out and the impact of the lack, or limit, of support has to be presented in this draft's Security Considerations so a reader/implementer knows what he's getting into if he decides to implement this scheme. I would advise a DISCUSS on this draft until this has been worked out. Errors: - the draft states "IEEE 802.11i uses EAP without any PKI for authenticating the WLAN access points." That is just plain wrong. IEEE 802.11 is agnostic about particular EAP methods but requires they provide mutual authentication and key generation. The Wi-Fi Alliance certifies IEEE 802.11 implementations (and the EAP methods they use). Of the EAP methods certified for use in IEEE 802.11-- EAP-TLS, EAP-TTLS w/MSCHAPv2, PEAPv0 w/MSCHAPv2, PEAPv1 w/GTC, and EAP-SIM-- only EAP-SIM does not require a PKI. Having been involved in that particular industry for most of the past decade I can assure the authors that PKIs of some sort are used in most every deployment of IEEE 802.11i. I have yet to see a pure EAP-SIM deployment anywhere. - in section 6.2 the draft mentions the "lying NAS problem" and says that "EAP methods that provide what is called 'connection binding' or 'channel binding' transport some identity or identities of the gateway (or WLAN access point/NAS)." The table in section 4 lists EAP methods that supposedly support "channel binding" but none of methods with a "yes" in that column do what section 6.2 says. The closest is EAP-SAKE (RFC 4763) which includes identities in a MIC but that won't solve the "lying NAS problem" and RFC 4763 even says, "EAP-SAKE does not claim channel binding" (so the table in section 4 is wrong). The others provide a protected channel but don't say how this can be used to actually solve the "lying NAS problem". The draft really needs to say that this problem has not been solved yet and remains an issue that must be taken into account if someone decides to implement this scheme. Editorial nits: - this draft really does not justify its existence well at all. I know the WG decided to pursue this work item but the reasoning around that decision does not come through in this draft. The introduction says that "[P]ublic key signatures and shared secrets are not flexible enough to meet the requirements of many deployment scenarios." OK, so there's some unnamed credential needed (probably a token card or some such). This is handled using the existing EAP support in IKEv2 so why is this scheme being defined? Then the draft mentions as justification that "deployment of a PKI is required" and "in many cases this is not realistic." If that's the case then why are EAP methods that require a PKI listed in the table of acceptable EAP methods for this technique? In section 2 the draft says "Offering EAP based authentication has the advantage that multiple different authentication and key exchange protocols are available with EAP with different security properties (such as strong password based protocols, protocols offering user identity confidentiality and many more)." OK, fine but all that is easily satisfied with the existing EAP support in IKEv2 so why is this scheme being defined? _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf