>o how widespread, and how frequent, a problem this is, In terms of the number of people, it's tiny. I can only think of three incorrigibly abusive people that bother the IETF, and even if I polled everyone here to name candidates, I doubt that I'd run out of fingers. On the other hand, the amount of time that they waste is enormous, because they abuse processes designed to deal with people whose misbehavior is ambiguous and temporary, which theirs is not. If someone doesn't get the hint to behave after one or two taps on the wrist, they'll never get it and it's a waste of time to keep grinding through processes to re-re-re-eject them. In view of the fact that the same people come back to annoy us year after year after year, we really need efficient ways to make them go away permanently. I also observe that they tend to have, ah, characteristic writing styles that makes it rather easy to recognize when they've grown another personality. So rather than inventing yet more complex rules, I would be inclined to have a much simpler rule that says that if a group's leader sees mail from someone who is obviously You Know Who or You Know Who Else already subject to 3683, just block it and send out a one sentence notice reporting it. Then return to useful work. Regards, Glenn Curtiss _______________________________________________ IETF mailing list IETF@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf