--On Saturday, 03 November, 2007 14:34 +1300 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On 2007-11-03 09:48, Scott O. Bradner wrote: > ... >> why does "tools" have to show up in just about every IETF URL >> these days? >... >> www.ietf.org/id/submit >> www.ietf.org/nomcom/feedback > > ID submission isn't at the tools server, it's at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/idst/upload.cgi > (and seems to be broken for IPv6 access, but that's another > issue) > > However, the generic answer is that tools still supported by > the > volunteer team are linked off tools.ietf.org. As for progress > in > migrating those tools to Secretariat support, thereby linking > them off www.ietf.org, I'm out of that loop. Brian, Ultimately, this is a key part of the problem. We have tools migrating from volunteer custody to secretariat support. We have the secretariat changing its mind about where to put things. We can quibble about domain names (Scott's point is probably valid although I question its importance), but what is key is not having to do a lot of navigation, involving loading and examining multiple pages (_especially_ if those pages are slow) to get to things that are in the critical path of doing work. As someone pointed out, one could, in principle, eliminate the need for a tools cross-reference page by keeping a collection of bookmarks. But bookmarks don't transport easily from one user system to another (the long and sad history of IMSP and ACAP is incorporated here by reference). More important, a bookmark solution implies that we need to put these facilities somewhere and leave them there: having a bookmark fail such that one then has to start a search and navigation process begins a frustrating and unnecessary process, no matter how long it takes. To me, the obvious simple solution to this is to keep one link -- either as a bookmark or in my head -- that points to a list of tools. That one page, followed by a link that leads directly to the tools, seems to me to be a reasonable compromise between usability and stability. Making it two pages, one of which is slow and hard to navigate, seems excessive and unnecesary. That one page should load quickly and be free of visual confusion and complexity (yes, I agree with Lyndon about that as well as about the bookmarks). And, while I can get used to remembering http://tools.ietf.org/tools, it makes sense to do that only if _it_ is stable, at least as stable as I assumed http://tools.ietf.org/ was before, and that page stays clean. john _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf