Hi, I understand this draft is in IESG evaluation and would like to register some comments. I apologize for the tardiness of this email. This draft is well-written and much needed but I feel it does not completely address the issue of using AAA for key distribution. Let me summarize the problematic scenario in mind, why I think the draft does not address this, and suggested additions to the draft to address my concern. PROBLEM It is desired to use AAA to distribute keys for network access and what is basically a 2 party model is applied to a 3 party protocol. A client authenticates through an authenticator to a AAA server. Upon successful completion of the 2 party authentication protocol between the client and AAA server a key derived from a shared secret is delivered to the authenticator. (Known channel binding issues here). Then, a new key hierarchy, built off another shared secret, is derived and keys from it are sent, using AAA, to other authenticators to faccilitate fast handoff. These keys typically have an "identity" of the authenticator mixed into the key derivation function. The explaination given by proponents of this type of scheme on why this is secure is that the authenticators all have a security association with the AAA server, the distributed keying material is sent under the protection of that security association, and the AAA server is trusted. This, again, takes a 2 party model and attempts to apply it to what is essentially a 3 party problem. The concern is that the security associations are most likely based on some identity that is not known to the client and therefore is not bound into the key, for example an IP address. The authenticator's identity mixed into the key is a NAS Identifier and the security association it has with the AAA server is based on its IP address. This allows an authenticator to lie about its identity to the AAA server, through it's secure and trusted link to the AAA server, and obtain a key intended for another authenticator. Since this key is symmetric it can be used to impersonate the client to the entity to whom it should've been delivered. If a key distribution protocol cannot guarantee that a key will not be sent to the wrong entity then it is flawed. Also, the client is not involved in the distribution of this secret that it shares. It just notices that some new entity has the key and must just assume that possession of the key implies authorization to hold the key. WHY IS THIS NOT ADDRESSED IN THE DRAFT Two groups, IEEE 802.11 Task Group "r" and the HOKEY working group, are discussing using such a 2 party model in a 3 party key distribution scheme. They are coming up with schemes that suffer from the problem described above and justify them by saying that the authenticators share a security association with the server and that the key being distributed has the "identity" of the new authenticator mixed into it. People in both these groups advocating this type of flawed scheme are well aware of the "Housley Criteria" and this draft. In fact, they point to "Authenticate all parties" and "Bind key to its context" as specific requirements they meet. (In the case of HOKEY the problem is more compound as they wish to distribute keys from a "home" domain to visited domains and a server in verizon.net could request a key for the sprint.net domain). If this draft explicitly discussed this type of flawed scheme I presume these groups would not persist in advancing them, but persist they do. So I would like to see some explicit guidance in this draft to direct people away from them. Some guidance on how to ensure that this type of subtle flaw is not perpetuated in future systems would be most helpful. SUGGESTED ADDTIONS TO THE DRAFT In "Limit Key Scope" it says, "parties MUST NOT have access to keying material that is not needed to perform their role." In the problem above the role of the entity lying about its identity is an authenticator and it is obtaining keying material necessary to perform the role of an authenticator, it's just that it has obtained a key for a different authenticator. I would like to see an additional requirement stating "Key distribution protocols MUST ensure that keying material is not given to the wrong party." In "Authenticate all parties" it specifically mentions different identities being used in the AAA protocol. This is in the context of establishment of session keys and the only problem it notes with different identities is one of difficulty with authorization decisions. I suggest the following paragraph be added to "Authenticate all parties": When a security association is used to distribute keying material the security association SHOULD be bound to a unique identity that can be commonly known by all the parties-- including the peer. If the security association cannot be based on such an identity then it MUST be statically configured to be an attribute of the security association. Then I would like to see a new section entitled "Confirm identities when distributing keying material" which contains the following: When another party requires access to keying material the identity of that party MUST be authenticated prior to distribution of the keying material. The distributor MUST ensure that the keying material is not disclosed to the wrong party. This can be accomplished, for example, by verifying the identity of the party to whom the keying material is being disclosed with the identity bound to the security association under which it will be sent. When keying material is disclosed the other party on whose behalf it is being disclosed MUST confirm disclosure. For example, a peer MUST acknowledge disclosure of keying material from a AAA server to an authenticator and the identity of the authenticator MUST be confirmed by the peer and AAA server. This paragraph should appear after "Authenticate all parties". If any of my writing is in need of wordsmithing I would be happy if it was fixed up. But I really think something to address this subtle flaw is needed in this draft prior to its publication as an RFC. Once again, I apologize in not bringing my desires to the authors' attention before it reached the IESG. I would appreciate hearing any comments on my suggestions and whether they will be accepted or denied. thanks, Dan. _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf