List of attendees? Surely that is actually independent of the minutes... --> -----Original Message----- --> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] --> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 6:14 AM --> To: David Harrington --> Cc: ietf@xxxxxxxx --> Subject: Re: Minutes and jabber logs --> --> Just a reminder of what our process rules (RFC 2418) say: --> --> All working group sessions (including those held --> outside of the IETF --> meetings) shall be reported by making minutes available. These --> minutes should include the agenda for the session, an --> account of the --> discussion including any decisions made, and a list of --> attendees. The --> Working Group Chair is responsible for insuring that --> session minutes --> are written and distributed, though the actual task may --> be performed --> by someone designated by the Working Group Chair. The --> minutes shall --> be submitted in printable ASCII text ... --> --> We don't insist on the list of attendees when that is in --> the blue sheets, --> but it's clear that the minutes have to be readable ("an --> account of the --> discussion including any decisions made") and that is not usually --> the state of a raw jabber log. It's important, since the --> decisions taken --> in a meeting have to be confirmed on the list - if the minutes are --> properly written, it's enough to ask for agreement on the minutes. --> --> A carefully edited jabber log can of course be just fine. --> --> (All of this applies equally to meetings at IETF sites, --> interim meetings, --> WG conference calls, and WG jabber conferences - readable --> minutes must be --> agreed on the list.) --> --> Brian --> --> --> David Harrington wrote: --> > Hi, --> > --> > I would not like to see raw jabber logs included as part of the --> > minutes. The signal-to-noise ratio is way too low in many --> meetings. --> > --> > Jabber logs written by a scribe do not do a good job --> representing the --> > body language and the nuances of speech that may be important to --> > really understand what a person said. I would also be --> concerned that --> > there are side-discussions in jabber that are not relayed --> to the whole --> > room; including those side conversations as a reflection --> of what was --> > said in the meeting is simply misleading. --> > --> > It is the chair's job to provide a summary of the meeting for the --> > mailing list to see what was discussed and "decided". I --> do not think --> > the chair should be allowed to evade this responsibility by simply --> > posting a quick summary and the raw jabber logs to the --> mailing list as --> > the official minutes. --> > --> > David Harrington --> > dharrington@xxxxxxxxxx --> > dbharrington@xxxxxxxxxxx --> > ietfdbh@xxxxxxxxxxx --> > --> > --> > --> >>-----Original Message----- --> >>From: Spencer Dawkins [mailto:spencer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] --> >>Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:18 AM --> >>To: ietf@xxxxxxxx --> >>Subject: Re: Meetings in other regions --> >> --> >> --> >>>That said, and given the difficulties of balancing competing --> >>>priorities in site location, it seems reasonable to me to make --> >>>a decent, good-faith effort without getting overly bogged down --> >>>in "where should we meet?" discussions, and really try to get --> >>>the remote participation thing nailed down a little better. The --> >>>ratio of good to bad remote meeting input has improved a lot --> >>>over the past year or so but there are still too many working --> >>>groups without a Jabber scribe in the room (which prevents remote --> >>>listeners from providing inputs), etc. --> >> --> >>OK, this is only a thought, and I'm out of the process --> >>improvement business --> >>anyway, but I've been seeing a consistent improvement in the --> >>quality of --> >>jabber logs for at least two years, and I'm wondering if --> >>there are working --> >>groups who would be willing to try "minutes = chair summary --> >>plus jabber --> >>logs" for a few IETFs (without what we usually think of --> as "detailed --> > --> > --> >>minutes"), and see if this is actually workable. --> >> --> >>I'm a many-time repeat offender as WG note-taker, and am --> >>watching my notes --> >>look more and more like a jabber log with only one jabberer; --> >>the advantages --> >>of jabber (in my experience) are --> >> --> >>- it's nice for the note-taker to be able to participate in --> >>the meeting - as --> >>an extreme case, in the SIPPING Ad Hoc on Friday, Gonzalo and --> >>Mary handed me --> >>the mike about twenty times, but very litte of what I said --> >>appeared in the --> >>notes, and it's worse when someone is already talking when I --> >>stop talking. --> >>That's typical in my experience. With Jabber, people can type --> >>until I get --> >>back to my seat. --> >> --> >>- It's really nice when I misquote, or mis-attribute, --> >>something that was --> >>said and another jabberer corrects it right away. This is SO --> >>much better --> >>than the WG chair having to listen to the audio stream to --> >>check my notes --> >>after some number of days has elapsed (and sometimes all the --> >>chair can tell --> >>from the audio is that I got it wrong, without knowing what --> >>"right" would --> >>have been). --> >> --> >>- and, obviously, this works better for remote participants --> >>(what's the --> >>alternative - send e-mail to the list?) --> >> --> >>Now that all this stuff is on the IETF website, it should be --> >>more enduring --> >>than if the jabber rooms and logs were hosted somewhere else. --> >> --> >>Of course, Jabber has to work; our wireless network has been --> >>pretty solid --> >>the last couple of meetings, but even so, if you offer a --> >>Jabber scribe an --> >>Ethernet connection and guaranteed power at the front of the --> >>room, that --> >>would be pretty compelling for me, most IETFs. --> >> --> >>Thanks, --> >> --> >>Spencer --> >> --> >> --> >> --> >>_______________________________________________ --> >>Ietf mailing list --> >>Ietf@xxxxxxxx --> >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf --> >> --> > --> > --> > --> > _______________________________________________ --> > Ietf mailing list --> > Ietf@xxxxxxxx --> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf --> > --> --> _______________________________________________ --> Ietf mailing list --> Ietf@xxxxxxxx --> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf --> _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf