Hi. I find the way in which this BCP change, and presumably the IPR Trust itself, very disturbing. This is not an appeal because I suspect the action is the right one. However, I believe there are issues that require some community discussion, perhaps leading to some changes. Part of my theory of the IETF is that our more fundamental, policy-oriented, procedural documents are representations of a social contract between the community and various of its components, expressed as best we can in procedures. The debates that spring up every time someone mentions the letters "IPR" are representative of this: while there are some fundamental disagreements about principles, each new document over the last several years has been an attempt to "get it right" or "get it more nearly right": to reflect a presumably-shared set of community norms about what the right thing to do is and to do so as accurately as feasible in a document or two. After all of the debates and discussions of a year or so ago, I think we reached a similar position and understanding with regard to the IASA, its components, and its role. BCP 101 is recognized as an approximation to that understanding. It does not perfectly reflect it; there was rough consensus in the community that making it more perfect was not worth the time and investment. I suggest, however, that there are two key doctrines that underlie the IETF's agreement create that new entity and to turn administrative responsibilities over to it: (1) The IAOC is not the maker of any fundamental policies, although it can, like anyone else, suggest such policies to the community. (2) While it may be necessary for the IAD or IAOC to carry out some negotiations in private, and to keep some detailed information, such as salaries, confidential even after agreements are reached, the IAOC does not approve secret agreements, nor does it make sweeping changes to administrative structures, without the opportunity for IETF review and debate. The function of the "IPR Trust", as I understand it, is to replace ISOC's role as nominal holder of IETF intellectual property, particularly the copyrights in RFCs. Some of us are big fans of ISOC and others are not, some of us trust ISOC more than others do, but the bottom line in this particular area is that there have been no instances in which ISOC's role as holder of those copyrights or other materials has acted to prevent any of the things that we want to have happen under our social contract with each other and with the Internet's users and implementers. Whatever the ISOC arrangement may be, it isn't broken. No evidence has been offered to the community to the contrary, nor has anyone come forward and said "there is a fundamental problem that cannot be solved within the current framework and to which the 'IPR Trust' is the answer". When we say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", those sorts of assertions are the thing we look for as evidence that something is, in fact, in need of fixing. To a large extent, I still trust the members of the IAOC and whatever members of the IAB and IESG (if any) have been fully briefed on what is going on here. If they believe that, despite the above, there is a problem that needs solving and to which the "IPR Trust" appears to be the solution, then I think it is reasonable that they spend time, and even carry out private negotiations, to see if that arrangement can be realized in a way that will improve whatever situations need to be improved. However, my understanding of the social contract between the IASA and the IETF participants is that there need to be some very significant limits on secrecy. Before anyone agrees to an "IPR Trust", I expect that the draft Trust Agreement, and any draft Operating Documents, will be made public along with the reasons for going down this path and that the IETF community will have the opportunity to review those documents, to examine them in the same detail with which we examine the IPR policies that may ultimately depend on them, and to reach consensus about whether this is a direction we want to go in, with those particular operating details. Is this really important? I don't know, because I have no idea what is in those documents other than the very little bit that has been made public. Can the Trust make decisions that would create encumbrances on IETF IPR, or constrain IETF actions, in ways that don't reflect community consensus? Do its Trustees become the final approval source for changes in IETF IPR policies? Are we happy about that? If we are, are we happy that the IAOC members, who, as I understand things, are supposed to have no policy role, have apparently appointed themselves (or agreed to be appointed) as the Trustees, thereby assigning what might be a key policy role to themselves. While I am uncomfortable with the IESG's approving this BCP change, my problem is not with the IESG. The current (approved) draft provides that it won't take effect until the Trust comes into being and that should be a reasonable level of protection -- if the Trust does not come into being, this change presumably goes rapidly to Historic. But my impression is that the plan is to approve the agreement itself without any opportunity for IETF community review. If true, that is, IMO at least, completely unacceptable. I know this is a difficult situation. I share what I assume is the IAOC's frustration that, nearly a year after BCP 101 and all of the effort that went into it were completed and approved, we apparently still don't have any of the contracts in place that were supposed to bring on a better and more efficient world for all of us. But, if the conditions for having an IASA requires that the community accept a situation that permits the IAOC to make fundamental policy changes in secret and to commit the IETF to them, then I think we need to question whether we need an IASA -- the price may just be too high. Put differently, I think there need to be some limits to what the IAOC can negotiate and how it does those negotiations. Those limits are determined, not by creative reading of BCP 101, but by the social contract I referred to above. If the IAOC members find themselves in a position in which the only way to realize a particular agreement or course of action requires violating that social contract and, in particular, approving policy changes as significant as alterations in how the IETF's IPR is held and administered without consulting the community about the reasons for doing so and the exact plans about what is to be done, then I believe they are obligated to say "no, our relationship with the IETF won't permit us to work that way, we have to do something else". If that is insufficient, then I expect those members of the IAOC who understand the IAOC's appropriate relationship with the community to start resigning. Having the IAOC turn into a secret legislature, able to make policy decisions for the IETF without consulting the IETF is, IMO, that serious and that intolerable. So this note is a call for the IAOC to reassure the community that no 'IPR Trust' agreement will be approved and set in motion without publication of those documents that are relevant going forward and a meaningful opportunity for the community to review and comment on those documents. I stress "going forward": if the IAOC concludes, in good conscience, that the agreements and negotiations that led to the IPR Trust's design and founding must remain secret, I think we should be willing to accept that, although I believe some members of the community would disagree. But any documentation or agreements that govern how the IPR Trust is organized and structured for the long term, how it is governed, what it does, and what powers and authorities it expects to have must be subject to meaningful community review before any final agreements are made. I have no idea whether I'm the only one who feels this way, but I thought I should at least raise the question. john _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf