> the Internet is composed of Autonomous Systems, and they take the > first word of the name very seriously. I suspect ISP accountability > in China, for example, may be as successful as copyright enforcement > in that region. Everyone has a common interest in keeping the Internet. Thus far law enforcement outside the US have arrested and prosecuted considerably more suspected Internet criminals than the US. Most countries are anxious to avoid becoming the next Nigeria. Those 419 scams do not help the country attract foreign investment. > Maybe we would all be happier if you decided to not waste your time > arguing with the folks in "this forum," since we are so out of touch > and irrelevant to the future of network security, at least as defined > by the practitioners who appear to emphasize the appearance of > security over security per se. You appear to assume that nobody is interested in trying any approach other than those that have thus far failed to gain widespread adoption and use. I am sure the majority of the people in this forum would prefer to look at ways of securing the Internet to protect against the real internet criminals stealing pensioners' life savings rather than continuing to pursue deployment of IPSEC which in its current form would not have the slightest effect on the crimes that are being perpetrated. The end-to-end absolutist approach to Internet security has been attempted in this forum for 20 years. The results do little to recommend the theory. There is not one example of successful deployment of system built to that architecture. By deployment here I mean used, not simply shelfware. It is time to consider the possibility that alternative approaches might be valid at the very least. If someone with a thinner skin than myself made that sugestion they might actually act on your advice. I really do not think that is something that Brian wants to see. There would probably be a lot more people working in the IETF who share my views if they did not meet with sarcasm, patronising remarks and intimidation. My views are no longer considered to be either radical or out of the mainstream in the security practitioner field. _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf