The IETF cannot accept the statements of known, court-proven liars, nor can it suppress this fact in its deliberations. If the IETF accepts court-proven and documented liars as reliable sources of fact, then it will have no more credibility in its statements, as they will be based on lies, not on truth. My statement was not an ad hominem, but a statement of fact. This is an ad hominem: http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg30606.html In it, Paul Vixie calls my company by a derogatory name. It is a personal attack. [No objection to that (and others), I note.] Black's law dictionary defines Ad hominem as "To the person. A term used in logic with reference to a personal argument." The key here is "logic". An ad hominem is a fallacy: Even if the person is X (whatever), that does make not their argument invalid. To have an ad hominem, one have to refer personally to someone they are arguing with, as Paul Vixie did in the reference above. If a person really is a Jerk, their statements might still be true. Their being a Jerk, doesn't make them wrong. The one and only exception is if "X" is "liar". If a person really is a liar, then their statements probably are not true, and cannot be accepted. However, this is a serious charge, and needs proof. In this case, we have irrefutable in the form of multiple court decisions which declared their associates to be liars, having defamed people on the subject of open relays. Our question is open relays, and their current statements are about open relays. A fact, well established, that anti-spammers engage in lies about open relays is certainly relevant to the question of whether the SpamOps assertions about open relays are based in true facts or in lies. Mr. Royer quotes the opinions of associates of known COURT-PROVEN liars to support his arguments. One person he quotes is well documented to have perpetrated similar false statements against people (myself) who revealed the lies of the court-proven liar. The fact of their previous lack of honesty on the subject is relevant to the truth of their assertions. --Dean On Sat, 25 Jun 2005, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > **** is a documented liar, and ****'s associate **** > > (formerly of ****) has been proven in court to be a liar on 3 separate > > court cases. And ****'s only regret in those cases is that he told the > > court the truth when asked if he had subscribers. **** was shut for > > contempt of court when **** published his blacklist instead of complying > > with a court order to remove false entries. You should review > > http://www.****.org, although it is not complete. > > This sort of assertion really has no place on an IETF list, regardless > of whether it's true. It's as ad hominem as you can get, and that > isn't how we debate here. Facts yes, people no. > > Thanks > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@xxxxxxxx > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > > -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf