Margaret, A comment on part of your note to Brian... --On Saturday, 23 October, 2004 11:46 -0400 Margaret Wasserman <margaret@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >... > Brian, I believe that you and John Klensin were both members > of one such group -- the IAB Advisory Committee that did the > initial AdminRest work. As far as I know, your meetings were > not minuted and your mailing lists archives were not open, > although you did produce a public report in RFC 3716. Is it > your belief that the public report includes all of the > substantive information that you received, and all of the > substantive issues that you discussed as members of that > advisory team? Or did the team make some decisions regarding > what the community did or did not need to know? Is there any > reason why your mailing list archives were not made publicly > accessible? What it even considered? >... While it was not handled perfectly (by my rather tough definition at least), that effort came pretty close to the way I think things that require some private discussions should be done. The existence of the effort, and the members of the committee, were, if I recall, made known to the community (and certainly to all of the IAB and IESG) on a contemporary basis. The general agenda being discussed was also exposed fairly early. And, yes, while I disagree with some of the tone and details of the report, it did pretty much cover all of the substantive issues we discussed. Certainly I can recall no discussion of what the community "did or did not need to know" and am pretty sure that no such discussion occurred. Now, the reasons the discussions and mailing list archives were not made public. I don't think we really discussed it, but all of us who are familiar with the IETF process, yourself included, have noticed how rapidly the S/N ratio can deteriorate in "public" discussion of things for which the "public" doesn't take the time to understand the details. Private discussions are sometimes a necessity, as is the ability to float what might be stupid ideas without having them quoted for years as one's firm position. When issues that either involve people's jobs, that can get highly emotional, or that may involve legal claims are at issue, the importance of holding private discussions becomes even greater (and we have seen all of those things in various pieces of the Admin restructuring/reorg process). I'd actually favor changing the rules to make that more explicit. But it seems to me that what we don't need to do is rather nicely reflected in the difference between the AdminRest process, as Leslie managed it, and the rather more confused "consultants report" and "scenarios" process that has followed it more recently. In the latter, it has been claimed that members of the IESG and IAB have been cut off from information, even when they have wanted it, and with no reasons being given. I don't know if that is true, but, if it is, I think that is intolerable -- not the cutting off, but the lack of exposure of agendas and reasons why privacy was needed. And, if it is not, a little more open discussion would go a long way to making the community feel better about the process. There have been discussions that have been hidden --intentionally or accidentally-- from the community. I think there is a huge difference between "We are going to discuss X with Y. Those discussions need to be private because they touch on sensitive issues, but a summary of conclusions and justifications will be made available as soon as that is possible consistent with that level of sensitivity" and "the community isn't entitled to know that the discussions are being held". For long periods of time, the community was been told very little besides "we are looking at this and you should stand by" (and, by implication "be prepared to support whatever we conclude"). It is at least debatable whether the consultant's report reflected all of the available options accurately and fairly (although, if it did not, it may never be clear whether that was due (as has been alleged) to malice, excessive control behavior, prior strong biases about acceptable outcomes, etc., or just to asking Carl to do far too much work in too short a time. I am tired of singing this song, but there have also been assertions of the "rights" of the IESG and/or IAB do things and make decisions out of sight of the community, and I don't believe there are any such rights or any role for such claims in any of our processes. But, again, that isn't how the first rounds of AdminRest were handled, and I think the differences are pretty important. john _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf