As Ted says, the IETF should stay out of passing judgment on the validity of claims and/or fighting patents. It's really way outside of our charter. Anyone can set up a separate organization to do that if he/she wants. However, this case is just the worst of many. It is abundantly clear that the IETF's current approach of treating each IPR claim on a case-by-case, ad hoc basis is really hurting us. I've been involved in IETF IPR issues for a while and time after time I see Working Groups get totally stuck trying to evaluate the impact of a particular patent claim (and then sometimes another, and another ...). At this point we need more than guidelines. Our productivity is suffering because they just aren't effective enough, soon enough. We would benefit greatly from something deterministic, IETF-wide. Eliminating IPR altogether will be difficult at best, probably impossible, and I don't think trying to do so is worth our time. However, there appears to be rough consensus emerging that an IPR assertion is acceptable if any of the following are true: - a license is explicitly not required. - a license is explicitly free with no restrictions. - a license is explicitly free with rights of "defensive suspension" (what Harald calls "no first use"). I know of a couple cases where any "encumbrance" at all was considered unacceptable, but the great majority have found one of these acceptable. If an IPR assertion falls into any of these categories, then Working Groups no longer need to consider it as an issue, and no longer should. They can actually make progress. What an idea -- to have a general rule worked out in advance by which you can deal with an IPR issue in one or two minutes, and then go on. So that's a proposal: If a claim falls into one of those three categories it is acceptable, and WGs shouldn't consider it as an issue. Let's get some time at the Washington meeting to talk about this. swb _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf