Let me repeat The Scenario C document does NOT propose to incorporate the IETF !!!!! It proposed to incorporate IASF (the IETF Administrative Support Foundation) which is quite a different beast. We keep trying to make that clear, but it seems we still fail to do so. Please DO read carefully what the proposal is. Bert > -----Original Message----- > From: Gene Gaines [mailto:gene.gaines@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 23:22 > To: Karl Auerbach > Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand; ietf@xxxxxxxx; scott bradner > Subject: Re: Scenario C prerequisites (Re: Upcoming: further > thoughts on > where from here) > > > Karl, > > 2 cents. > > Assuming IETF is going to set up a corporation and it is to be > created in the United States, it appears to me there are strong > reasons for incorporating as a non-profit, and further to obtain > tax-exempt status as a 501(c)(3) organization. > > It appears to me that IETF qualifies for this status easily as > a technical, memberhhip organization, not operated for private > benefit, engaged in creating and publishing information freely > available without charge and in the public domain. > > I spoke briefly with a U.S. Internal Revenue Service (IRS) expert > who told me informally that IETF appears to qualify easily for > non-profit, tax-exempt status. > > If anyone is interested, I can provide several IRS rulings and > Shephard-qualified court decisions for similar organizations. > > The forms to make application are not burdensome, and can be > completed by any competent lawyer (knowledgeable of non-profit > law) and should be part of the process of setting up any IETF > corporate entity. I emphasize: Setting up the IETF entity to > properly qualify for non-profit and 501(c) tax-exempt status > _must_ be considered at the time the corporate charter is set up. > > Note that the IRS processing time for obtaining 501(c)(3) status > currently is 120 days; this can be shortened by invoking special > circumstances; the effective date will be retroactive to the > date the entity filed for incorporation. Despite all the folk > tales, the U.S. IRS is not capricious in such cases, and a > qualified lawyer can state with certainty whether the IETF does > or does not qualify. I'm not a lawyer, but am sure the IETF does > qualify. > > Warning. IETF people travel between countries to attend > meetings. Security and border restrictions are becoming > increasingly restrictive in the U.S. and many other countries. > > I suggest it is imperative that, if the IETF does incorporate, > it obtain non-profit and I recommend tax-exempt status. It is > important -- critical -- the IETF attendees be seen as traveling > to attend a technical meeting conducted by a non-profit > organization. Remember the trouble with U.S. people traveling to > Korea for IETF 61? (We obtained special papers from the Korean > embassy in Washington by claiming the IETF to be part of ISOC, > and ISOC has non-profit status. > > It is generally true that visitors to a country for tourism or to > attend non-profit technical meetings are subject to substantially > less restrictions and less paperwork than those traveling for > business purposes. > > Further, it is so very important the IETF be transparent, and > its financial dealings be open. The annual filings required of > U.S. non-profit tax-exempt organizations will provide much of > that transparency. > > Last question. What impact will incorporation, either the > entire IETF organization or only a headquarters activity, have > on ISOC and the support it provides to the IETF? > > ISOC is non-profit, 501(c)(3) tax-exempt, incorporated in the > District of Columbia. > > I suggest it would be a serious mistake for the IETF not to > obtain the same status. > > Gene Gaines > gene.gaines@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Sterling, Virginia USA > > On Wednesday, September 22, 2004, 12:37:36 PM, Karl wrote: > > > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote: > > >> I think this and a number of other points made here gloss > over a key point of > >> which some of the participants may not be aware. > >> > >> Under US law, there is a significant difference between > "not-for-profit" and > >> "charitable nonprofit".... > > > It might be useful to add more precision. > > > In the US there are two levels from which laws affecting > corporations > > arise, state and Federal. Corporate structures are usually > created under > > state law. > > > Many states of the US have laws that allow "non-profit" or even > > "charitable nonprofit". Here in California, for example, there are > > several forms of non-profit: public-benefit, charitable, > mutual benefit, > > religious, medical, etc. > > > And here in the US we have a lot of states - 50 of 'em - > each with its own > > different corporations laws. > > > At the federal level there is yet another mountain of law, > but we often > > end up talking about tax exemptions under Title 26 Section > 501 of the US > > code. That part of the tax code covers a lot of territory > and is very > > complicated and full of subtle distinctions that trigger significant > > differences in treatment as well as imposing rather > different kinds of > > limitations and obligations upon the entity that is seeking > or obtained > > one or another of these exemptions. > > > So, when talking about these things we can avoid a lot of > confusion if we > > try to be precise about specific state level conceptions of > corporations > > and non-profitness and federal level conceptions of federal > tax exemption > > and the benefits, limitations, and obligations that come from each. > > > I might add that one of the questions that ought to be > raised, and it is a > > question that I'm certainly neither qualified to answer nor > will I even > > attempt to answer, is whether the IETF ought to seek > Federal tax exempt > > status at all. Sometimes it may be better to simply file > the papers, pay > > the tax money, and be free of many of the restrictions. > > > --karl-- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ietf mailing list > > Ietf@xxxxxxxx > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > > > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@xxxxxxxx > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf