My .02: Informational. > On 12 May 2024, at 10:01, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > On this week's telechat is https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5990bis/ which has a Normative dependency on ANSI X9.44. > > I didn't know where to find that spec, but some light googling turned up: https://webstore.ansi.org/standards/ascx9/ansix9442007r2017 which suggests it's available for 60 USD. > > What would your recommendation be for handling this draft? > > On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 3:56 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > I concur with Mark. > > The general principle here is that it should be possible to implement the protocol specified in an RFC without payment of a fee to access the specification. By definition, a normative reference is required to implement the protocol and therefore any normative references fall under this principle. I recognize that S 7.1.1 is somewhat fuzzy on this topic (in that it defines an open standard without reference to free availability). > > An Internet Standard TS or AS may incorporate an open external > standard by reference. For example, many Internet Standards > incorporate by reference the ANSI standard character set "ASCII" [2]. > Whenever possible, the referenced specification shall be available > online. > > However, the text that Mark quotes makes it clear that free availability is a non-requirement, which I think goes in the wrong direction. > > I don't think we should publish this document as-is. > > -Ekr > > > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 4:49 PM Mark Nottingham <mnot=40mnot.net@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > I'm sure that this has been discussed somewhere already, but I object to this text in the draft: > > > Note that there is no requirement for a freely available copy of the reference after the publication of the draft as an RFC, nor is there any requirement that the copies be provided to the general public. > > This leaves the door open for an arbitrary fee or license being required to implement IETF standards, in direct contravention of its OpenStand commitments to have "[d]efined procedures to develop specifications that can be implemented under *fair terms*" (emphasis mine) and to "[ensure] a broad affordability of the outcome of the standardization process."[^1] > > If we choose to allow this, at a minimum the draft needs to contain firm guidelines regarding the terms that such references are available to the public under -- regarding aspects such as intellectual property licensing, financial reasonableness, non-discriminatory access, and so forth. > > That said, I think we can do better. One of the definitions of 'open standards' is _free to implement_, and I would hope that the IETF aspires to that. > > Cheers, > > > [^1]: see <https://open-stand.org/resources/>, slide 3 > > > > > On 11 May 2024, at 01:51, The IESG <iesg-secretary@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to consider the > > following document: - 'Procedure for Standards Track Documents to Refer > > Normatively to > > External Documents' > > <draft-kucherawy-bcp97bis-05.txt> as Best Current Practice > > > > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final > > comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the > > last-call@xxxxxxxx mailing lists by 2024-06-07. Exceptionally, comments may > > be sent to iesg@xxxxxxxx instead. In either case, please retain the beginning > > of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. > > > > Abstract > > > > > > This document specifies a procedure for referencing external > > standards and specifications from IETF-produced documents on the > > Standards Track. In doing so, it updates BCP 9 (RFC 2026). > > > > > > > > > > The file can be obtained via > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kucherawy-bcp97bis/ > > > > > > > > No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > IETF-Announce mailing list -- ietf-announce@xxxxxxxx > > To unsubscribe send an email to ietf-announce-leave@xxxxxxxx > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > -- > last-call mailing list -- last-call@xxxxxxxx > To unsubscribe send an email to last-call-leave@xxxxxxxx > -- > last-call mailing list -- last-call@xxxxxxxx > To unsubscribe send an email to last-call-leave@xxxxxxxx -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ -- last-call mailing list -- last-call@xxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to last-call-leave@xxxxxxxx
