I intended to tone down some of my comments before sending, but ran out of time. I'm sorry if some came over a bit strong. I've tried to remedy below, see [BB-follow-up]...
On 30/11/2021 00:22, Bob Briscoe via
Datatracker wrote:
Reviewer: Bob Briscoe Review result: Almost Ready This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document's authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the IETF discussion list for information. When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC tsv-art@xxxxxxxx if you reply to or forward this review. Version reviewed: Originally draft-ietf-httpbis-priority-09, but also checked -10 diff. ==Summary== The move to an e2e request and hop-by-hop response is a good one. I'm not sure how ready this is, until I see how the authors respond to my questions about the interaction model and whether the client can say "I dunno, you tell me" to the server (T#4c, T#5a and T#9a). I think all of my other points are 'just' holes in the coverage of each aspect of the protocol, but some will be quite involved to fill. There's a lot of vagueness still to be tied down, I'm afraid. Three sets of comments below: * Gaps (G#): 2 * Technical points or suggested modifications to normative text (T#) 13 * Editorial points (E#) 29 ______________________________________________________________ ==Gaps== G#1 Implementation status section? This review would have really benefited from an implementation status section. You will see I got suspicious that some of the sections had been written without the benefit of any implementation or operational experience. While others seemed stronger. If the implementation status had been written up, I wouldn't have had to guess. Here's my guesses at what has been implemented, given the waffle factor of the relevant sections ;)
[BB-follow-up]: Sorry, 'waffle factor' was a bit derogatory. I meant that the sections that I have identified below as 'less mature' tended not to say anything significant, while apparently looking as if they were saying something significant.
* e2e priority protocol protocol handlers and schedulers: most mature * intermediary priority protocol handlers and schedulers: not so mature * automated priority header generation, APIs: not so mature * priority of server push, retransmissions, probes: just ideas in theory? * investigation of deadlocks, loops, etc: early days. G#2 Performance evaluation? Priorities are about improving performance. This is a stds track draft about a core IETF protocol. But there is nothing in this draft pointing to any studies that quantify how much performance is improved (or not) by the different aspects of the protocol. Ideally there would be a study comparing the HTTP/2 priority approach with this one. Is that because the studies don't exist, or just an omission?
[BB-follow-up]: I was wrong to say there is nothing pointing to any studies, just that the studies pointed to haven't been cited. I should have just asked for references to be provided at the end of §2, after:
"Multiple experiments from independent research..."
______________________________________________________________ ==Technical Points and Modifications to Normative Statements== §2. Motivation for Replacing RFC 7540 Priorities T#2a) Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence? RFC 7540 priority is expressed relative to other requests on the same connection. Many requests are generated without knowledge of how other requests might share a connection, which makes this difficult to use reliably This says why relative values were difficult, but it doesn't say why or whether absolute values will be better. Is there lots of experience of absolute values being sufficient and easier to use? or any cases where absolute values might be insufficient? It seems obvious that at run-time you might hit the end of the number space, i.e. have to pile up objects on the same urgency value at the edge of the space when you really wanted some objects to have higher (or lower) urgency. There is a mention of the possibility of creating an extension with intermediate urgency values, but what does an implementation do when it hits this problem in the middle of a session? It can't quickly jump out of run-time, convene a design team to get a new scheme extension agreed then go back to run-time and complete the session. T#2b) Motivation for replacing 7540 included removal of dependencies? The Security Considerations says that one of the motivations for replacing 7540 was that "Extensible priorities does not use dependencies, which avoids these [resource loop DoS attack] issues." Draft-09 listed this as one of the motivations in §2, but in draft-10 it has been removed from §2. If it is still a motivation, it ought to be listed in §2, not just in Security Considerations. Security Considerations seems to be in the commonly used style of just a list of pointers to other parts of the draft. So it would be consistent to say this in §2 not just in Security Considerations, which even says "Considerations are presented to implementations, describing how..." as though the details are elsewhere in the document. Whatever, given this seems to have been an important motivation, please try to describe this issue in a self-contained way, rather than talking obliquely in a way that requires the reader to refer to the CERT advisory (e.g. "...some types of problems..."). §2.1. Disabling RFC 7540 Priorities T#2c) Incremental deployment Two perhaps obvious but unstated things ought to be stated: i) An HTTP session will always _function_ even if all priority information is ignored; it just might perform badly. ii) The semantics of the SETTINGS_NO_RFC7540_PRIORITIES setting is intended to apply to both directions (if it is?). When it says "A server that receives SETTINGS_NO_RFC7540_PRIORITIES with a value of 1 MUST ignore HTTP/2 priority signals." I assume after "MUST ignore" it intends to add "...and MUST NOT send...". I assume this is stated as "server MUST ignore" rather than a protocol error, because the HTTP/2 priority signals might have come from an intermediary that doesn't understand the SETTINGS_NO_RFC7540_PRIORITIES setting. Also, it is surely a protocol error if one endpoint sets SETTINGS_NO_RFC7540_PRIORITIES to the opposite of the other. Or if a node sends a header after it has said it won't. If a client sets SETTINGS_NO_RFC7540_PRIORITIES to 1, but the server doesn't understand this setting, and later sends HTTP/2 priority signals (perhaps in response to an intermediary), what happens? [As I pointed out in my review of RFC7540 Priorities (when it was a draft but after IESG approval), it wasn't clear whether priority messages were only sent in the C-S direction, or also the reverse. I didn't receive a reply on that point and the RFC is still not clear. https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2015JanMar/0529.html ]
[BB-follow-up]: That wasn't intended to sound like sour grapes. In the opening sentence of my review of http/2 I had said I was aware that my (long) review had arrived after http/2 had been approved by the IESG. My review was unsolicited. And I guess the last thing anyone wants to do when their draft has just been approved is answer a load of points about something they are not going to change. But I guess it should have been handled eventually, if only for errata.
§4. Priority Parameters
T#4a) Vagueness permeates what intermediaries do in this draft
Intermediaries can consume and produce priority signals in a
...PRIORITY_UPDATE frame or Priority header field.
...Replacing or adding a Priority header field overrides
any signal from a client and can affect prioritization for all
subsequent recipients.
* Do intermediaries really both consume and produce priority signals. Always?
In both directions? What does 'consume' mean (absorb and not forward, or read
and forward)?
* Can they really use either type of frame? Always?
* How does adding a priority header override any signal from a client? Or is it
only replacing that overrides?
My later comment asking for a more precise statement of the protocol's
interaction model ought to resolve these issues as well.
T#4b) Really only C-S direction?
PRIORITY_UPDATE frame preserves the signal from the client, but...
...overrides any signal from a client...
Also used for S-C direction?
Given this part of the draft seems to have been written solely about the C-S
direction, perhaps it would be better to admit that is a good way to structure
the draft with C-S first. Then add another section about S-C, and perhaps
another about S-Int. The alternative of adding to all the definitions to cover
all directions and interactions, might become incomprehensible.
§4.2. Incremental
T#4c) Client doesn't always have prerequisite info to set incremental parameter
There will surely be cases where the MIME type of the response (and therefore
whether the client can render it incrementally) is not known, or cannot be
guessed by the client when it requests a resource, or when it starts content
negotiation? For instance, the client might have listed MIME types in its
Accept list, some of which are incremental, and some not.
[BB-follow-up]: I intended to add that I suspect in common cases the client's guess of what MIME type is likely to served will be sufficient and correct. This comment was meant to be about the remainder of cases.
The server can't override a client 'not incremental' message by stating that the MIME type it has served is incremental. Because, when the client says 'not incremental', that is intended to state the capability of the client, not the format of the resource. Perhaps the HTML that gave the client the hyperlink that was selected to get the resource could also include a tag giving the MIME type of the hyperlinked resource? Or perhaps the idea is that the client has to send a PRIORITY_UPDATE once it knows the MIME type (by which time it might be too late)? §5. The Priority HTTP Header Field T#5a) Interaction model: an example or mandatory? It would help to start by explaining (perhaps in the Intro, rather than §5) whether a priority message about a response can be initiated by a server or intermediary if there was not a priority field attached to the request from the client. I believe the draft intends this not to be possible, although this is not stated normatively anywhere, and I don't know why such a restriction would be imposed. Actually, I believe it is essential that the protocol allows the server to initiate priority messages, as absence of a message is currently the only way for the client to say "I have no idea, you decide". Otherwise, if the server is only allowed to follow the client, when the server knows the best order to serve the objects (which I believe is often the case), the client still has to request non-incremental objects in some order or other, and give them some priority or other. So the server doesn't know whether the client actually knows what it is doing, or whether it is just making up an ordering because it has to, even tho' it has no clue.
[BB-follow-up]: When I said "which I believe is often the case" I didn't intend to mean the majority of cases. I meant "not an insignificant number".
I'm sure the client can have a crack at how to set the priorities in common cases. Which can then be modified by the server if necessary.
The point I was trying to highlight was that the client has no way to tell the server how to distinguish between "I'm certain about these priorities" and "I'm not really sure, but the protocol requires me to look as if I'm sure, even if I just leave everything as default priority."
I think I explained it better under T#9a.
Alternatively, could the client send a Priority header with no parameters? This would indicate that the client wants the server to prioritize, and to allow the server to tell intermediaries what to prioritize. (For more about clueless clients, see T#9a) "Client scheduling".) The abstract gives the only outline of the interaction model, but it's not clear whether this is just an example of common usage, or the only possible model. §5 just says the priority field can be used "when a request or response is issued". It goes on to state that the priority field is an e2e signal, but then in the next sentence talks about how intermediaries can combine priority info from client requests and server responses (which reflects what §8 says as well). So "e2e" is clearly an over-simplification. I think it's e2e in one direction but hop-by-hop in the other (supported by the description in the abstract), ie. client -> server -> intermediary/ies -> client. It's also possible that intermediaries are intended to (or at least allowed to) read but do not alter the messages in the C-S direction, otherwise, what would they 'combine' with the priority field coming from the other direction? Whatever, the interaction model(s) is never stated precisely. I've classified this as a technical point, not just editorial, because I couldn't really assess the completeness of many other technical details of the draft without knowing the answer to this fundamental question. T#5b) Normative 'cannot'? Clients cannot interpret the appearance or omission of a Priority response header as acknowledgement that any prioritization has occurred. Was this intended to say 'Clents MUST NOT interpret...'? T#5c) Nothing said about caching and priority The paragraph about caching and priority just ends having talked a bit about caching but not about priority. It left me none the wiser about what a cache ought to store about priority with the response. §13.8 talks about fairness between multiple live connections in the presence of coalescing. But doesn't the discussion of caching and priority here need to talk about what must/should/may be stored about priority in a cache for later connections. Even if it's implementation dependent, wouldn't it be worth a brief discussion (as in the 2 paras below). The priority of a response is the outcome of an interaction between the client's original (e2e) priority combined with the server's logic about the resource. If only the priority outcome is stored, then when another request arrives at the cache from a different client, there will be no record of the original client's priority. So the cache will not know what client priority led to the priority stored with the response. And it will not know whether the current client priority is the same or different. On the other hand, if the cache stores the original client priority with the response priority, then should it refer a request with a different (e2e) client priority to the server, then store the new pair of priorities with the original cached response? And I guess it could serve the request in parallel, rather than waiting for the server to tell it whether to serve the request urgently (!). This would probably scale reasonably well, given the likely small number of different client priorities. But who knows how it would scale if the parameter space is extended in future. §9. Client Scheduling T#9a) Client doesn't have prerequisite info about content sizes and dependencies Consider a web page example with a load of non-incremental objects for the client to request. It doesn't know their sizes, and it doesn't know which ones might contain references to further objects to request. So it requests A,B,C,D. In retrospect, it turns out that C was huge, and D referred to further objects to download. How was the client to know it should have downloaded D before C? To be effective, a scheduler needs to know object sizes and which objects will identify further objects to be requested (dependencies). * Size is known by the server but not by the client, at least not until the headers at the start of the object arrive. * Dependencies are known by the server, but not by the client until an object starts to unfold. Why is the client made to choose the priorities of the responses? It doesn't know any of this vital metadata about these objects. It can guess from file types that JS and HTML probably ought to come first. But it knows little else. So, as I already said under my question T#5a) about the interaction model, the most important capability the client must have is the ability to say "I dunno, you decide". But that's the one thing this draft doesn't allow the client to do (at least I think it doesn't? see T#5a). For a list of non-incremental objects, even if the client gives all their requests the same urgency, it can't send all the requests at the same time - it has to choose which order to send them in, even if it has no clue. This tells the server to respond in that order OR to choose a different order. But the server doesn't know whether the client chose this order deliberately or just because it didn't know any better. Alternatively, there will need to be some way for the server to tell the client what to prioritize _before_ it sends its requests (e.g. using extensions to the HTML in a base HTML document). §10. Server Scheduling T#10a) Server push priority sounds like waffle
[BB-follow-up]: By 'waffle' I meant that it doesn't really say anything concrete, but it tries to say something. So it ends up making equivocal statements like "it could be too high, or it could be too low."
The discussion of priority for server push seems to say "This might not work". If this conclusion is based on operational experience it ought to say so. And if it's not, it ought to say that it's just conjecture. §12. Retransmission Scheduling T#12a) Sounds like more waffle Similarly, if retransmission scheduling and/or probe scheduling has limited operational experience or limited usefulness, it would be better to say so, rather than trying to sound authoritative without really saying anything. §13. Fairness T#13a) Please define fair. Seriously. A prerequisite question is, "What parameters does a server scheduler manipulate?" The text implies the server can only control the order in which it starts a response to each request, and whether responses start while other responses are in progress or wait for their completion. If so, I'm not sure what fairness could mean. Presumably a server can also determine the relative rate at which it sends different streams. And it could stall a stream to allow another absolute priority. In this context, fairness might mean instantaneously equal rates. But that's not fair if the objects are of different sizes. So we genuinely do need to see a definition of what fairness means here. T#13b) Why not make scheduling decisions across different clients? As a general guideline, a server SHOULD NOT use priority information for making scheduling decisions across multiple connections, unless it knows that those connections originate from the same client. Why does the IETF have anything to say about this? It's surely an operator policy decision.
[BB-follow-up]: Hope those clarifications help.
Cheers
Bob
______________________________________________________________ ==Editorial Comments== General (all sections). E#0a) Are precedence and priority interchangeable with urgency? It's called a priority field, and the parameter is called urgency, but sometimes the term priority or precedence is used to describe urgency. Please go through the draft using priority or urgency consistently, and remove precedence unless it's there for good reason. §1. Introduction E#1a) The "For example" in para 2 is actually the general point not the example, whereas the example is in the previous para. E#1b) The last para " The prioritization scheme and priority signals defined herein can act as a substitute for RFC 7540 stream priority." would fit better 3 paras earlier, just after "HTTP/2 [HTTP2] has consequently deprecated the use of these stream priority signals." E#1c) It would help to state what the interaction model is for the priority field. I believe it's not as simple as just "e2e" (see technical comment earlier about §5). Although I've suggested that normative text about this ought to be in the §5, it needs to be stated early on (probably in the intro, not just the abstract), because the reader needs it to understand §§2 & 4. §1.1. Notational Conventions E#1d) Was HTTP/2 priority only from C-S? The term HTTP/2 priority signal is used to describe the priority information sent from clients to servers in HTTP/2 frames; Neither RFC7540 nor the http2bis draft says that an HTTP/2 priority signal cannot be sent by a server. It may be that this was the unstated intention but, if it wasn't, the above sentence is incorrect. §2. Motivation for Replacing RFC 7540 Priorities E#2a) Not just absence CURRENT: compatibility (see Section 5.3.2 of [HTTP2]), which means that they might still be used in the absence of alternative signaling, such as the scheme this document describes. PROPOSED: compatibility (see Section 5.3.2 of [HTTP2]), because they might still be used by other nodes. REASONING: 7540 priority fields are not only used in the absence of alternative signalling. They are used by the client in parallel to extensible priorities before it receives the server's SETTINGS frame. 2.1.1. Advice when Using Extensible Priorities as the Alternative E#2b) CURRENT: might be useful to nodes behind the server that the client is directly connected to. PROPOSED: might be useful to a server behind the directly connected node. REASONING: Removes ambiguity - I initially read this as "nodes (behind the server) that" rather than "...the server that". §3. Applicability of the Extensible Priority Scheme E#3a) The priority scheme defined by this document considers only the prioritization of HTTP messages and tunnels, see Section 9, Section 10, and Section 11. Is this sentence meant to be as mysterious as it sounds? If this document only considers messages and tunnels, what else doesn't it consider? Is 'HTTP messages' deliberately used instead of 'HTTP responses'? If it is wider than just responses, then all the places in the draft where it says it is about http responses need to be generalized (e.g. §4.1, §4.2, §8, §10 §14). But will this make the draft so abstract that it becomes incomprehensible? Perhaps better to explain here that it is applicable to a few other odd messages and tunnels, but it is primarily about responses, so where the draft talks about responses, it is not intended to preclude the other less-common cases. It's not clear what the references to §§9,10,11 are there for. Are they further info about tunnels (only §10 has one sentence on tunnels)? Or are they meant to list all the sections about scheduling things? if so, why not also §12 on scheduling retransmissions? E#3b) CURRENT: they can also define how this priority scheme can be applied. PROPOSED: they can also define how the present priority scheme can be extended to support the new extension. RATIONALE: I think this is what was intended? §4. Priority Parameters E#4a) First use of reprioritize Ought to explain long-hand why reprioritization might be needed here, given it hasn't been mentioned yet. E#4b) Note that handling of omitted parameters is different when processing an HTTP response When what processes an HTTP response? The client? An intermediary? Both? §4.1. Urgency E#4c) integer between 0 and 7, in descending order of priority The smaller the value, the higher the precedence. Suggest the latter is moved up 2 paras. (BTW, what possessed anyone to define this in the most illogical way possible? So that the highest numerical urgency means the lowest urgency?) E#4d) Priority = Precedence = Urgency? This section interchanges the words 'priority', 'precedence' and 'urgency'. Why not just use urgency throughout? Otherwise you have to define that priority and precedence mean exactly the same as urgency. §4.3. Defining New Parameters E#4e) Not new parameters for everything Suggested replacement section heading: "Defining New Priority Parameters" s/ When attempting to define new parameters,/ / When attempting to define new priority parameters,/ §4.3.1. Registration E#4f) s/in Structured Fields Dictionary/ /in the Structured Fields Dictionary §5. The Priority HTTP Header Field E#5a) s/carries priority parameters Section 4./ /carries priority parameters (Section 4)./ E#5b) s/As is the ordinary case for HTTP caching [CACHING], a response with a Priority header field might be cached / /A response with a Priority header field might be cached [CACHING]/ §7. The PRIORITY_UPDATE Frame E#7a) s/which can can be bound by/ /which can can be bounded by/ (Oxford dictionary example '‘the ground was bounded by a main road on one side and a meadow on the other’') §8. Merging Client- and Server-Driven Parameters E#8a) First para: The 2nd example isn't a particularly good example of 'server knows best'; it even admits that it's the visual-ness of the client that determines the priority. #8b) What is 'the logic being defined' meant to mean? s/This is different from the logic being defined for the request header field,/ /This is different from the approach for the request header field,/ Perhaps? §10. Server Scheduling E#10a) No guidance is provided,... except for a page and a half No guidance is provided about how this can or should be done. ... For these reasons, ... this document only provides some basic recommendations for implementations. (Contradictory.) It seems like the rather over-negative caveats in the first 3 paras need to be revisited now that the page and a half of recommendations (some normative) has been added after them. §10.1. Intermediaries with Multiple Backend Connections E#10b) s/inflight/in flight/ §11. Scheduling and the CONNECT Method #E11a) A client that issues multiple CONNECT requests can set the incremental parameter to true, servers that implement the recommendation in Section 10 will schedule these fairly. s/...true, servers.../ /...true. Servers.../ There are 3 recommendations in §10. Which one? Given §10 starts with a load of caveats about how hard this stuff is to get right, is it appropriate to assert with such certainty that scheduling will be fair? §12. Retransmission Scheduling E#12a) s/Section 6.2.4 of [QUIC-RECOVERY], also highlights/ /Section 6.2.4 of [QUIC-RECOVERY] also highlights/ §13.1. Coalescing Intermediaries E#13a) It is sometimes beneficial for the server running behind an intermediary to obey to the value of the Priority header field. This seems an odd sentence to have in this draft. I think it is meant to be in the context of the previous sentence about coalesced requests with priorities set by different clients. Needs rewriting, I think. s/obey to/ /obey/ s/the Priority header field/ /each Priority header field/ s/as another signal in its prioritization decisions./ /as another input in its prioritization decisions./ §14. Why use an End-to-End Header Field? E#14a) s|Contrary to the prioritization scheme of HTTP/2| |In contrast to the prioritization scheme of HTTP/2| Contrary in this form has an implication that HTTP/2 was wrong. That might be intended. But 'in contrast to' has less of a 'know-it-all' feel. E#14b) Answering a different question rather than how relatively urgent each response is to others. This seems to be a (weak) rationale for relative rather than absolute priorities, whereas the section heading promises the rationale for an e2e header. I suggest the whole first sentence of this 2nd para is deleted, because the next sentence gives a sufficient rationale. E#14c) Answering another different question It should also be noted that the use of a header field carrying a textual value makes the prioritization scheme extensible; see the discussion below. This is also not a rationale for an e2e header. Perhaps it belongs in the Intro? Alternatively, the section title could be changed to "Rationale for Priority Protocol Design" or something. Then it could give rationale for absolute priority values and textual values as well as e2e header fields. E14d) see what "discussion below"? Perhaps this refers to the sentence in Security Considerations that refers to [STRUCTURED FIELDS]? If so, it's hardly a "discussion". §16. IANA Considerations E#16a) populate it with the types defined in Section 4; see Section 4.3.1 for its associated procedures. I suspect IANA will prefer the exact text they should use to be written here. Regards Bob _______________________________________________ Tsv-art mailing list Tsv-art@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art
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