At 19:25 -0800 3/9/04, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >--On 18. februar 2004 18:06 +0000 Tom Petch <nwnetworks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >>I find your definition of the Internet delightfully ambiguous. I was >>taught that the Internet (as opposed to an internet or the internet) was >>the public network accessible through public IPv4 addresses (this predates >>IPv6) ie the Internet ceased at a firewall or other such IP level gateway. >> >>Reading your definition, I cannot tell where you stand; are firewalls and >>networks behind them included in IETF mission or not? > >Tom, >reviewing, I cannot tell whether I answered this one or not.... >I was definitely intending to include them, since IMHO they are connected to the internet (see "both core and edge networks", "host to host"). If you can suggest words to make this clearer, I'd appreciate it! > > Harald Just to throw a wrench into your discussion, The Internet just happens to be a Manifold (which literally means a bunch of pipes all connected together, such that entering at the end of any pipe, you can traverse the manifold and get to the open end of every other connected pipe in the manifold. Every manifold pipe can be extended, so it is not possible to define the ends in any rigid way. Extension can be with PPP over dial-up, or a NAT router, or even a printer or word of mouth, or CD/DVD/TAPE/Postal-Service/etc/et al, ad nauseum. It might be interesting to view the Internet through the contextual lens of spherical geometry concepts which I think fit as well as anything, contrary to some of our historical internautical terminology. For example, in spherical Geometry, a manifold has no edges, and has no center, while IETF folk insist that the Internet has an edge somewhere (just one) but I have not heard any claims that it has a surface, or that it has a center. Apparently, what people call "the edge of the Internet" consists of an imaginary canvas stretched over the ends of all those manifold pipes with an imaginary elastic sheet of imaginary fabric. But this only forms an edge if the Internet exists only in a two dimensional plane. And even then, I have problems imagining all those spokes as making an edge. Actually, they are referring to all those ends of all the manifold pipes, in that when attached to an end, the attachment is said to be made at the edge. I have big problems trying to imagine this as an edge (or a surface). So, I have tried to stop using those terms as they get in the way of thinking about various aspects of the Internet. Not that I really understand much more than this about spherical geometry. I just wanted to toss this into the mix while all y'all are trying to decide what this thing called the Internet actually is. I notice that all y'all have not settled on much of any agreement. Reminds me of the 8 blind wise men trying to discover what an elephant is by each exploring a different part with their hands. So far, I do not know anyone who claims to have touched its edge with their hands. So, I just want to suggest that some of you out there who do understand spherical geometry might discover some things from looking it the net with spherical geometry glasses. I only know that certain aspects seem to fit better than might be expected. For one thing, a manifold has no center, and indeed, an internet has no center. >From my management consultant background, this has been an important realization, because, without the existence of a center, there is no logical place to put a control center to enable central control. We like to say that the internet is controlled from its edges, by which I expect they mean it is controlled from its manifold pipe endpoints. Also, I note that from any endpoint a user can, and generally does, create a personal private network of (sometimes) collegial correspondents that is controlled by it owner. Those networks are centrally "controlled" with address lists in address books and routing tables, and such. Surely, some of you will be quite upset about my observations, but I ask you to stay cool and just ponder it all for a while to see of things don't start to look different from this point of view, hopefully yielding some useful new insights. Enjoy;-)...\Stef