On Wed, Feb 04, 2009 at 03:04:02AM +0100, Jakub Narebski wrote: > > I guess that this mailing list is subscribe-only, isn't it? So doing > CC to uvc-reviewers wouldn't, unfortunately, cut? According to the Wayback Archive's record of the uvc-reviewers mailman listinfo was open for anyone to join, and the archives were public, which is why I don't mind sharing the archives with anyone who asks. > > I'll include some of my writings on the subject from the uvc-reviewers > > mailing list so folks can see where some of this discussion went last > > time... (All of this dates from January, 2008, when Eric was last > > aggressively updating the paper in question.) > > Thank you very much for those excerpts / fragments, even though > I'd rather have your fresh comments either on current state of > "Understanding Version-Control Systems", or on my post. My comments haven't changed; as you probably noted, I agree with you, and my arguments largely parallel yours. I was using a Reductio ad absurdum argument to show that the same argument that claims that Git is a primitive, hackish, SCM because it doesn't record user intention vis-a-vis file renames could also be extended to say that use of all current DSCM's amount to "Programming Malpractice" because they don't allow the recording of higher level "user intentions" such as the renaming of variables, functions, types, and class names. My comments date from the very end of January 2008, when Eric stopped updating his paper, and before he could start doing an extensive description and evaluation of bzr, Mercurial and Git, so it's not surprising that they are still relevant today. I suspect that when he picks up this draft again, and starts writing these sections covering modern distributed SCM's, the sections for Mercurial, Git, Bzr, et. al, will cause a huge amount of controversy, because even though he is claiming to be unbaised, there is very clear in the draft to date that he would very much like to draw a grand sweeping picture of progress and evolution starting from "first generation systems" (RCS, SCCS, et. al), to "second generation systems" (CVS, SVN, et. al), to "third generation systems" (Arch, Monotone, git, Mercurial, etc.) There are hints in the draft that he views "container identity" has the next "evolutionary idea" which "more primitive" systems do not have, and "more evolved" systems do have. This can be seen from this excerpt from his draft: First wrong assumption: Conflict resolution by merging is intractably difficult, so we'll have to settle for locking. It took at least fifteen and arguably twenty years for VCS designers to get shut of that one. But it's historical now. Second wrong assumption: Change history representation as a snapshot sequence is perfectly dual to the representation as change/add/delete/rename sequences.. This folk theorem is well expressed in the 2004 essay On Arch and Subversion. It is appealing, widely held, and dead wrong. File renames break the apparent symmetry. The failure of snapshot-based models to correctly address this has caused endless design failures, subtle bugs, and user misery. So you can see that Eric seems to believe quite strongly that the failure to track file renames is as fundamental an error as what he terms the "First Wrong Assumption". He later admits that the idea is controversial, and that people are still "grapling" with it, but I think he's tipped his hand about what he believes the ultimate correct answer is with respect to this issue. I believe, as I think you do, that the hysteria that states that you *must* record user intention leads inexorably to the requirement to force users to indicate "intention" by popping up Annoying Dialog Boxes whenever they suck in a patch that was sent via e-mail so that the SCM can record information about whether a file rename had happened in a particular commit. I believe this requirement to do record user intentions and to pop up these Annoying Dialog Boxes is a blind alley ala the vast amount of time wasted arguing over algorithms such as Codeville precise merges. I also believe that forcing users to record "user intention" makes about as much sense as forcing users to declare they are about to edit a file by explicitly taking locks on files ala RCS. I suspect Eric will disagree with me, but regardless of how he completes his paper, it will almost certainly end up taking sides one way or another on this controversy, at which point one side or the other of this particular disagreement will argue that Eric is really writing an advocacy paper pushing Bzr, Mercurial, or Git (depending on how he comes out on this issue). Your suggestion that the proof is going to be in the code makes a lot of sense. The examples I would suggest that we create, and then demonstrate (or make enhancements to git) so that it can handle these real world examples are: 1) In branch A, the directory src/plugin/innodb-experimental is renamed to src/plugin/innodb, and in branch B, a commit (i) modifies a file src/plugin/innodb-experimental/table.c, and (ii) creates a file src/plugin/innodb-experimental/mod-schema.c. This commit in branch B is then pulled into branch A, where the directory rename has taken place. The user may not know that a directory rename had taken place under the covers, so they don't give any magic options when they run the "git cherry-pick" or "git merge" command. Does the right thing happen such that the right file in src/plugin/innodb is modified, and the new file is created in src/plugin/innodb, even though in the original commit, the changes were made to files in src/plugin/innodb-experimental? 2) And does the right thing happen if the situation is as described above, but in, branch C, which is descended from branch B, a new directory, src/plugin/innodb-experimental is created, such that src/plugin/innodb and src/plugin/innodb-experimental both exist. Now the same commit from branch A is pulled into branch C. Will the correct thing happen in that the correct files in src/plugin/innodb are modified and created, even though there is a new directory containing a completely unrelated plugin that happens to have the name, "innodb-experimental"? BTW, it has been asserted that there exists at least one major open source project where this sort of thing happens quite often, and the fact that git did not do the right thing in these conditions was a factor their choosing another DSCM. > Or "Detecting [Wholesame] Directory Renames"... which can be done > using 'rename detection' paradigm, and we have patches to prove it![4] > but unfortunately code didn't made it (yet!) into git. And it can, > I think, deal with splitting files into two directories, something > which I guess in 'container identity' (directory-id) based solution > is simply impossible It may be that Yann Dirson's patches will handle case (1) above. Handling case (2) is much harder, especially without slowing everything down massively, since it would effectively mean needing to looking for directory renames along every single commit on the branch. (This would obviously have to be cached in some cache file.) It can be done, I'm sure, but it would require a lot of code to get right. Whether or not it's worth it is a question which is open to debate, but I believe the bzr folks have asserted that bzr can handle both cases (1) and (2) above, and there are some folks who apparently care. Whether or not a particular open source project will really and truly run into this problem is a different question, and one can argue that renaming plugins, and then creating new plugins with the same name as older plugins that have since been renamed will lead to programmer confusion, and so that's a good enough reason to avoid doing such crazy things. Unfortunately, you know how some programmers are.... telling someone they shouldn't do something is often an invitation to do exactly what you tell them is a bad idea, and then they complain when your filesystem or your DSCM doesn't handle that case particularly gracefully. - Ted -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe git" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
