On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 06:08:55AM -0000, David Jeske wrote: > I can be better than cvs with the EXACT same workflow, by checking in their > local changes (git checkin;) and then doing the "up" (git pull;). If they > decide they botched their merge, they can get back to where they were before > the UP because I'm using a richer underlying mechanism to implement their > workflow. This is a really good example of the problems involved. One of the major problems with CVS is that CVS developers have a tendency to use "cvs up" *way* too often --- i.e., with a dirty tree. Why do they have a dirty tree? Well, generally because they commit too rarely; since CVS branches are so awful to use, they generally don't use CVS branches, and so if they are in the middle of making major changes the source base, they may not do a CVS checkin for weeks or months, since they don't want to break the centrally visible branch until their project actuall is at a stage where it can be checked into the tree without breaking core functionality. (I once supervised a programmer who didn't do a CVS checkin for two months, and then lost two months of work when his local disk died, and as a result he had a nervous breakdown; you just can't make up some of the massive, major problems that can result from CVS-inspired workflows.) So if you are going to accomodate the broken workflow where people leave dirty state in their local tree for vast amounts of time, and thus insist on running "cvs up" all the time, and will try to cover for it by committing their work under their noses when they do the equivalent of "cvs up" in a dirty worktree --- what does that mean? Well, maybe you can make it work, but it breaks other nice features of git. For example, it means that "git bisect" can't possibly work, since there will be huge number of commits where the tree may not even build! Accomodating the CVS workflow is basically about the fact that users don't want to learn about CVS branches, because they were horrible to use, and even worse to merge. But that's not true with git branches; so maybe it's better to teach them how to use git branches instead, instead of trying to coddle them into letting them use the the same old broken CVS workflow that was based on branch-avoidance? I've created and taught a Usenix tutorial which covers the basics of distributed source code management systems, including branches, repositories, pushing and pulling between them, for git, hg, AND bzr, and I did it in half a day. The concepts really aren't hard. The main problem with git is that because the UI grew organically, there are all sorts of exceptions and non-linearities in its CLI. For example, the fact that "git checkout" can be used both to switch between branches, and revert and editing file. Or the fact that how you specify a set of revisions in git-format-patch is different in terms of what happens when you specify a single commit; it's documented in the man page now, at least, and people who teach git after a while learn about the things that you have to teach newbies that git experts take for granted. (Just as people who teach English as a second language learn about all of the exceptions to the language that you have to point out that are second nature to the natives.) But really, git *isn't* that hard, once you get past the somewhat awkard CLI. (It's no worse, and probably much better, than the Unix shell/test/awk/sed/head/tail/sort/uniq/comm, etc. You just have to get over the learning curve.) > git's mechanisms are really great for making a hybrid > central/distributed system which has the simplicity of cvs/perforce > and several of the benefits of git. The git interface is just too > complicated to be used for this. Fortunately, building on git means > that power users will still be able to use git directly and people > can distribute the repositories as much as they want. I'd suggest that you try using git straight for a bit longer, before you start drawing these conclusions. Trust me, the concepts of git really aren't that hard to explain to people; that's not what you need to hide from people coming from the CVS world. The hard part is the fact that git's UI has all sorts of non-linearities and that git's documentation and introductory tutorials are not as good as it should be. (Although it's gotten a LOT better than just a year or two ago.) Also, if your program when used by CVS refugees to causes the git repository to be peppered with trash commits which don't build, even if power users are using git directly, their ability to browse the repository using "git log" or "gitk", or to try to find problems using "git bisect", will be horribly, negatively affected. So I am a bit worried that the result will end up destroying value for the project in the long-term, and that the costs will not be matched by the benefits of simply teaching the CVS refugees a few bits of git and DSCM core concepts, which I've found is *not* the hard parts of getting newbies to use git. > Good question. I'm working on a command-line wrapper for git that does it. > Digging into the "plumbling" is making it more obvious why I find git's > porcelain operations hard to understand. Exactly. So what I would ask you to consider is that you may find it personally useful to design this system, but afterwards, before you inflict it on projects, and deal with some of the attendent side effects (like all of these trash commits causing "git bisect" to go down the drain), that you consider whether *now* that you understand how git works and why it does some of the things it does, and what the shortcomings of the git porcelain are from a UI perspective, whether CVS refugees really would be best served by this system you are designing, or whether a few wrapper scripts to hide some of the more pointy spikes in git's CLI, plus some better tutorials, might in the long run be much better for these CVS developers that you are trying to serve. - Ted -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe git" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
